Clark Harp questions

[gaffanon]

Clark Harp Model A 1885. the pillar and Harmonic arch are separated. looks like some one kept tuning after the two pieces split. It has very few strings on it looks like the strings are decades old. any advice anyone might have to repair this? it looks fairy straight forward to me, ive built guitars and a few other instruments. I want it to stay as original as possible. is a modern wood glue preferable or should I use something Like EA40 to repair the seperation.

[charles-nix]

Photos of the separation would help. Some can be repaired; some can not.

But be aware that harps are often _not_ like other luthiery. The string stresses are MUCH higher; likely over 1000 lbs on that model. And the neck is not only pulled down, but sideways by the strings, and that is the source of most misdesign and joint failure I’ve seen.

I don’t use aliphatic resin glue for _any_ joint under tension. It creeps over time. Some places on a harp it can be used, when backed up with other means.

But I like to depend on glue as little as possible, and instead make the joint so it will hold itself together under the string tension. If your joint is a pillar to neck joint, the string tension should hold it with little or no glue required, as long as the joint is properly made–and many, many harps still built are _not_ made with good joinery.

A photo(s) will help in advising. There are several other harp builders with many years of experience on this board who may give advice also.

Working with existing instr

[gaffanon]

i have built a small harp before and I am well aware of the string stresses. this is an antique and I want it back together and in working order if at all possible. i do know it has sat in a corner for decades. i guess I was poor at explaining the split here are a few photos so you can see what I see. I appreciate the advice

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[charles-nix]

I’m sorry, but with the very small pixel count and size of the photos, I can’t tell you anything else. I’d need to be able to see how the entire neck/column joint is constructed, and how straight the neck and column each are, and zoom in to the closeup of the damage.

[balfour-knight]

Is there a harp tech or harp builder who could examine this in person for you? I agree with Charles, I cannot tell anything from your photos. Harps can be really tricky to repair!

[gaffanon]

i am having trouble uploading the larger version of the photos it tells me they are too big to attach my limit is 512KB but let me see if I can upload them one at a time. I dont want to use a lot of glue here that I know but what ever held the joint together has failed. the joint seems to be a lap joint so the upright column has one side of the joint and the neck/ harmonic curve has the other half. if I turn a tuning key that joint spreads or closes a bit but i dont want to push it. everything else seems to be solid thought I do see a couple of surface cracks on the sound board running horizontally on the board. ive contacted a couple of harp makeers Ive found near me and its been 2 weeks with no reply so I am looking for other options.

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[gaffanon]

im am trying to make these as big as they will let me

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[gaffanon]

other side

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[gaffanon]

from the front.

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[gaffanon]

sound board. i hop ethese are good enough for you all to see details. if not ill have to find somewhere to post them that I can link to to post the full sized images.

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[balfour-knight]

These are much better pictures–thanks for all your efforts! If you carefully remove all the remaining strings, and other hardware, see what just naturally “falls apart.” In most other old furniture repair, they literally pull or knock the pieces apart that are coming unglued, so that proper glue can be put in the joints and then carefully clamped back.

This is a beautiful harp–I would rather take it to an expert to have it rebuilt, but I know that may not be the best option for you. With careful work and the right glue, you may be able to repair it very successfully yourself. I am a “modern” harpist who has never had to deal with the little string “pegs” where the strings enter the soundboard. You may be able to find information on those on-line or from a harp tech who actually will respond. (I hate it when I get no response!)

The good folks at Musicmakers Harps (harpkit.com) may be able to help you. They sell instrument building kits to do-it-yourselfers and offer nice advice by phone and on-line. Where are you located? I am in North Carolina, USA.

Hoping to be able to help here,
Balfour

[gaffanon]

thank you for the reply. I am in Florida in a very rural area. I would like to do the work myself. i generally tend to study things to everyone around me is sick of it lol. I do want advice and would welcome help as well. but getting no replies from several people after asking for advice. even if I gt I cant help you but no answer at all. how do you run a business to sell instruments and not reply to inquiries? I have asked if it were possible to hear or see one their harps and some advice as well and nothing. tomorrow i may hit up Music makers anyway. I have been contemplating getting either their plans or a kit as many of my tools were stolen in a break in about a year ago. I’ve had a rough 3 years as have many. I dont have the money I used to have. I would love to tear apart a few broken harps and see how they are put together. and possibly restore them as well. BUt I have built about a dozen guitars a small 22 string harp for a friend of mine. a reverie harp a dulcimer a mandolin and harp stands for friends. I have also been looking for a tech because a friend of mine has a harp by John Chambers he is no longer making harps and does not even want to see one. however her sound board is incredibly warped and needs replacing and I do not know how he built it and dont have some of the tools I would need to even contemplate fixing it anymore. she and I have both been trying to find someone who will work on it with zero luck.

[balfour-knight]

I hope someone in FL sees this and helps you out. Good luck!

[charles-nix]

I agree with Balfour, take the strings off, and it will probably fall apart. The pillar may be fastened through the base, or from inside the soundboard, or it may just be pinned in place.

I agree with you that it looks like just a half-lap joint. At the age, the glue is certainly hot hide glue. With Florida humidity, and sideways tension on the neck always pulling that joint open, it is not surprising it failed.

After you get it apart, clean the neck/pillar glue joint of old glue. Be sure to keep it flat. On a historic instrument, I’d probably go back with hide glue–but you can use one of the room temperature versions. Tite-bond makes one, among others. You can also use epoxy, polyurethane, or aliphatic resin. As I mentioned before, aliphatic resin “creeps” under load, so I generally avoid it for joints in tension. None of the newer glues are reversible, however, but they have better humidity resistance.

Looks like a simple job of getting the joint flat and fitted, then back together without the crack slowing. More complicated if either piece has warped, but I can’t tell that from a photo. Both faces will need to be dead flat, though. And the column and/or neck may be a couple of degrees off of vertical in the direction opposing string tension so that when the strings are tensioned, the neck will be vertical.

You definitely need new tuning pins. Those are badly corroded and chewed up–possibly by tuning with the wrong tool. There are a number of different head sizes, lengths, pin sizes, and styles available. Those look like a standard tapered pin, so when you take the string off, tapping on the string end should pop them right out.

Tuning pins now are ANSI standard taper pin dimensions. I’m not sure if the standard was the same for the original pins. A micrometer and a chart from online will tell you. Modern pins Nos 2-5 are what you will compare to.

The bridge pins can probably be cleaned and buffed. No one much likes blade tuners. They wear the strings, and are rarely close to accurate. But replacing is an involved job–and it is no longer an original Clark afterward.

The original strings are gut, with wire-wound basses. A harp string maker will be able to match a set for you. If you stay with gut, you will need to do some careful gauge checking to see what is on there now, and try to find a chart of what should be on there. It is certainly lighter than pedal gauge, and may be lighter than what is now called lever gauge gut. I can’t help you with the pinned strings, but there is probably information to be found online.

[talfryn]

Hello Gaffanon,
this seems perfectly fixable, I have no knowledge of Clark harps, I have never seen one here in Europe. But from the photos you show its a typical lap joint, it can be an extremely neck joint strong because all the glue joints are in compression or shear which means the pieces are generally forced together when the tension and twist from the strings comes on. I use almost exactly the same joint on my own self built harps. The joint should be permanent, but it does rely on the correct glue being used. I have a plywood (not the DIY stuff, I use truck standard birch board) neck on my bench at the moment with this type of joint.
From the photos the glue used orignally on your harp seems to have creeped and lost its integrity, its just environment and age.
My advice would be to remove all the strings and hardware, carefully noting which pins to which holes etc. Then renove the neck, again not knowing Clark harps, theres probably a bolt or screw at the pillar base remove it and the complete neck assembly should come away. You may then end up with one piece or 2 pieces depending if any of the glue is still working. If its 2 pieces should be straight forward, clean both sides of the joint you need to remove all traces of the original glue, and anything stopping the pieces from mating together.
You have a choice on the glue used I would use either epoxy or titebond. For repairs I use epoxy, (again not the DIY stuff, I use boatyard epoxys such as West series) the are many YouTube videos for this. Epoxy is fiddly to keep clean with masking etc. but it fills gaps and requires less clamping. For the titebond you have to prepare the surfaces very well and you will need to have a good clamping strategy to hold the parts together whilst the glue sets, you can clean the titebond with a damp rag, whilst the glues open.
One final thing, be prepared to ream the tuning pin tapers, if youre careful they should line up when you rest the pieces, but more likely than not you will have to reclean the bores, glue has a habit of find way to escape 🙂
Theres a lot more i could add, but hopefully this gets you thinking..

Good luck
Talfryn

[Author]

Posts