Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Trust me, you do not want to carry an FH36 or even and FH34 on your back. I do have straps for the CD34 case which fits my rather large 26 string – sheesh, ouchy shoulders. The cart thingy though is really worth it!
Biagio
>but lets keep that entre nous because I don’t want Biagio to know. He is pretty invested in the woodworking aspect of harping. BTW did you notice your spelling of ‘would’ in your last paragraph?<
Hee hee hee back attcha, friends. Yeah, the harp and it’s design fascinates me but that should not be taken to mean that I think it is the best way to go for most people. As Wil knows from my stint as owner/moderator on the Virtual Harp Circle I will always suggest what seems the best fit for the individual, but won’t get pushy about it. Renting a Ravenna 34 for a while often seems the best fit to me for many people especially if finance is a significant consideration.
I do strongly believe however that some understanding of design concepts will help a beginner – uh, make that any player. Among other things, it will be helpful in evaluating various harps beyond “this is my favorite.” But that does mean they have to actually build one!!
Point of fact while I wait for chicken to bake and just babble on…my first teacher required all her students to evaluate their harps and explain why it sounded as it did. Some grumbled about that (hee hee again).
Wil, I’ve just about talked myself into that Cheyenne conversion. What’s a couple of thousand among friends?? It won’t be for a while though. If I do I will order the kit now and do the basics – box, neck-pillar, any required surgery – and order a spruce SB down the road a piece.
Harp hugs to all friends here,
Biagio>In that “Ultimate Buyers Guide” on Stephanie Claussens site I was intrigued to note that Ravenna 34’s and anything larger all get a ‘N’ in the ‘transportable’ section. Really?<
I could not find the reference but I assume she is thinking about the height, rather than weight, and may be thinking in terms of airline travel. In any case, it would be wise to put it in a case if using public transport.
I envy you the car-free living, wish I could! Oh well, one of the down sides to living on an island:-)
About documenting a harp build out…when I have I’ve taken pictures of each critical step with comments:
1) String band design and drafting of the profile – sides and front with detailed measurements. This step always comes first and is the most time consuming part of the whole thing:-)
2) Detail of critical joints and method -neck-pillar, neck-body, pillar foot-base. I itemize required hardware at this point.
3) Use the full size draft to make templates
4) Start making sawdust including any required jigs or fixtures. First the sound box with open front and back; next neck-pillar assembly; next sound board and back.
5) Test fit all parts and make adjustments (there are always adjustments)
6) Sand sand sand, spray SB with nitrocellulose lacquer
7) Put it all together again and if all is hunky dory start applying finish (I really like Tru-oil gun stock finish)
8) Add pins pegs and string grommets; string her up
9) Twiddle thumbs a couple of weeks while waiting for tune to hold; then add levers.Hi ho. I have almost convinced myself to do that Cheyenne up grade so it might not be long haha.
Biagio
Wow, those look very nice. I have no objection to these composites over metal; mounting appears similar to Camacs but without the hassle of double drilling mounting holes and different sized bridge pins.
Weight should not be a problem with sound distortion if they are placed accurately.
I’d guess they would be cost competitive also in the US if one bought a full set (26-36). If I ever build another harp (doubtful but who knows?) I would definitely take a closer look.
In fact, between this discussion and that about Howard’s harp I’ve been bitten by the harp building bug. Do they make a patch for that? Anyhow I sent Sakem the string specs and asked about installation details and approximate shipping cost to the US.
Woo hoo here we (maybe) go again.
Biagio
Well it has been a stimulating discussion and I have enjoyed it. Summing up and if I understand Howard correctly:
You have investigated it all thoroughly and want a reasonably priced harp to begin learning to play. We’ve considered a good selection in that category, which is comparatively narrow compared to the very large number of more expensive instruments. From where I sit, renting a Ravenna makes a great deal of sense.
Howard, you also seem to be of a studious nature; if you want to understand more about exactly how harps are made there are plenty of resources but for an excellent discussion all in one place, take a look at Sligo Harps:
Rick discusses how he makes them, comments on some different approaches, delves into string design (although he avoids wound strings which gets complicated), gives detailed remarks on several lever designs and considers the unique stresses on a lever harp.
He’s a retired engineer but you can ignore some of the more esoteric stuff and concentrate on the ideas. He only writes about some ways of making the critical joints (neck-pillar and neck-body) – I can think of a half dozen ways of making either just off the top of my head so again, just consider the concepts:-)
Best wishes,
Biagio>Yes, Biagio, I do like heavily strung harps, but I do like medium strung harps as well. Therefore I have both a L&H Prelude as well as a Camac Excalibur and I was tempted to buy a harp with an even lower tension. Some pieces I like to play on one harp and other pieces on the other harp.<
Big grin Wil, and there we have it in a nutshell – that’s exactly why many of us have several harps. Admittedly, harp lust can get a little crazy. I’ve been corresponding with a teacher in Brussels who has 10 harps plus a piano and is thinking of adding a double strung (!).
Rent to own…Dusty has a very good plan – find it on the Music Store part of the website.
Hi Howard,
I also think that is an excellent plan and indeed what I would probably do myself. You even may find that you like the Ravenna enough to keep buy it after renting for a while – many people take that route ie first rent then buy later. Some might even have rent-to-own policies (I don’t know if Dusty does).
In any case, that will give you some time to get familiar with the lever harp in general, mingle with others try out their favorites. And of course while saving quite a bit in the beginning.
Thormahlen is an independent lever harp maker, one of the best known in the PNW along with Dusty Strings, Blessley, and Boulding.
Yeah, guess I wasn’t too clear on this, sorry:-).
I suggested contacting them for two reasons: 1) because the make excellent harps and 2) if I (or you) want to build from a kit, put on Camac levers, but do not want to go through the hassle of mounting them it makes sense to have a professional who uses them do the job.
A case is nice to have if you often go to retreats, gathering and so on but I would not buy one immediately either. For several years I just used a “tucked and tailored” sleeping bag for my largest harp (which was even bigger than the Cheyenne.
Got a lot of laughs over that at retreats: it had bunny pictures on it!
Cheers,
BiagioEdit: Just read the most recent posts, here are my comments:
1) Mounting levers is a precision job and especially for the more complicated ones even if one has a lot of experience. I estimate that even with Truitts (the easiest to mount) it can take me 10 minutes each. I’ve resisted Camacs because I did not want to spend $100 for metric bits and even more time on a lever that is only marginally better than the Triutt if at all. Camacs have become very popular so there’s the “market mind” but I could name many excellent players who still are happy with Lovelands. If a player wants a particular kind, (and does not want to build) heck, buy a harp with it. Let’s not get all balled up in a lever discussion (grin).
2)”Plinkyness”: The very short treble strings (4″ or even less) simply do not have the sustain as longer ones lower down and cannot move the soundboard as much. That is true for ALL harps. Further, those laminate boards as on the harps we’ve been discussing are harder than spruce (or mahogany in the case of the FH series) so they resist the string force more. In the end, the players technique will determine how plinky they sound. So: is the Ravenna plinkier than the Crescendo? Depends on who is playing it and who is listening!!
3) Wil clearly prefers harps with higher tension gut strings and I prefer those with medium tension and nylon strings. That’s fine as far as it goes but we could go round and round with our personal favorites (I happen to love the Sligo Luchair for instance, while the Tormahlen Cieli is very popular here among Celtic players) and just confuse the issue LOL. The Ravenna is a great harp at a very reasonable price so I say “go for it” and rent if you can.
Hi Howard,
I had time on my hands so pushed some numbers around. I don’t want in any way to steer you in any direction but figured I’d share what came out of it.As I wrote on the other thread, I put in a call to David and Sharon Thormahlen asking if Dave would mount Camacs for you. Still waiting to hear back (they usually return calls in the AM). A point to bear in mind is that if Dave would agree and the charge is acceptable you would be committed to the strings that Musicmakers provides.
On that score I took a look at Musicmakers’ strings for the Cheyenne (and Voyageur as long as I was at it) and revised them to my preference: five are too fat for my small hands and I really do not like metal wound bass strings. I also really like a more mellow tone.
Having gone that far I thought “What would I do if it were me?” Here are the choices I came up with:
Ravenna 34 with full Camacs $2370
Crescendo with full Camacs $3520
Cheyenne with revised strings* full Truitts and supplied SB $2760
Voyageur with revised strings*, full Truitts and supplied SB: $2220*I estimated those strings at $150 from my price list, two years old; assuming the 6 fluorocarbon ones are in stock.
A spruce board from Rick Kemper would be about $450 additional cost (I don’t remember the SB dimensions). A case for the Cheyenne is $525 from MM. No figures available for a case for the Voyageur. It would not fit, I find, in the Dusty CD34, probably with room to spare in the CD36 ($525).
A case for the Ravenna 34 or Crescendo from Dusty is $295.
I hope that this is useful for you! Again, all are fine instruments.
Best wishes,
BiagioHi Wil,
Here in the US it is the same. Those who use Camacs know the sizes they need for their models and only order those – in bulk, presumably.
Truitts are also ordered directly from Betty Truitt. She provides the needed tools to first time builders free of charge. She will ask a first timer for details (vibrating lengths, compositions etc) and provide what they need as well as an extensive guide to how she suggests mounting them. Most if not all I know have found faster ways than Betty suggests.
Lovelands Rees and Robinsons are widely available from several places. If you ask for a professional luthier to mount levers on a harp (either from a kit, or changing from on type to another) the cost will depend on how long it takes them. On average that will run around $15 each or perhaps more, assuming they are willing to do the job.
Thormahlen has an excellent discussion on Lovelands, Truitts, and Camacs on their webpage:
http://www.thorharp.com/pages/levers.htmHoward, I left a message asking whether Dave would mount Camacs if you decide on the Cheyenne kit. I can do Truitts for you or at least get you started (no charge, maybe a Big Mac).
I’m with you Tacye – I’d go for simple over complicated (unless they are really shabby like those on Pakistani harps). Yep, Broughs were the best.
I always go with a full set on my own harps. Just the needed (Bs As and Es or Cs Fs and Bs) would be a savings if a beginner is unsure about whether a harp is really for them.
Even Robinsons are OK for me on an inexpensive harp if I just have them as a convenient way to change keys – ie don’t expect to play chromatics. I did put blades on my wire strung but had to get them cast by a jeweler.
Wil, I suspect that Camacs would cost less in the US than the $20 I quoted from MM if ordered directly from the company. MM charges more than I’d pay for Lovelands too ($14) since I buy them directly from Bob Bunker for $6 each (last I checked).
Thank you all for the comments – keep them coming!
BiagioHi Howard,
Thanks for your insights! A few comments:
Loveland’s most recent levers have a longer throw than earlier ones and accept a fairly wide range of diameters for a given lever cam size. My personal objections to them are 1) they are a real pain to mount: the cam pushes DOWN on the string so they pull UP before fastened to the neck. That makes it more difficult to position accurately (consider that the string pressure may be from 20 to 70 lbs or more) and 2) They tend to grate on metal wound strings.
Most harpers want to color code Cs and Fs in some way. There are ready made colored “sleeves” for Camacs and Lovelands. With Truitts some people just order the heart shaped handle for those, others paint the handle end with enamel or use the heat shrink tape method. That’s my preferred approach. A more elegant way is to glue small red or blue “crystals” on the end. Same with Rees although all the handles are the same shape; or at least were on one of their harps that I owned.
Rees levers may be ordered from Robinson’s Harp Shop (where I buy my strings btw) or from Musicmakers. They are of the “one size fits all” variety which means one should add a stop above the fret for larger string diameters. I’m not to keen on how they do it – the stop is a separate component screwed to the neck. Stops are built into the lever itself for other makes.
>I’ve had a look at the Camac line of lever harps, and also the L&H harps. So by ‘bulky bottom’ … I’m looking at the proportion between how wide across the harp is, and how deep (front to back) it is.<
There was a discussion on the Harpmakers forum about this ie the ratio between width and cross sectional area at the bass and here’s the Readers Digest version of that:
On most “folk” harps that ratio is around 20%-40% (pretty large variance!), on pedal harps it is higher – around 70%-78%. We might speculate that the higher volume for the pedal harp is related to the often much higher tension on the pedal harp which can move a larger air mass and hence provide higher volume.
I suppose that a deeper box for folk harp tension would not hurt but probably not help either unless the sound board is quite wide and light, as found with the Paraguayan type harps. I don’t know that anyone has made a controlled quantitative experiment though…that would be interesting (and also pretty expensive!).
Mostly with those folk harps it’s a question of where the center of gravity falls, I’d guess. Deeper boxes would make for a more stable platform when it is just sitting around in your corner. Most harps also have feet down there for that reason.
Interesting question though!
Biagio
Hi Veronika,
I’ve often wondered what happened with those Delacours – do you (or anyone else) know?
Thank you for replying! In answer to your question at the end…
“Also, if you get the additional holes drilled and levers added a year or two later, won’t they always behave ever so slightly differently, because they will have been added to a harp that will have been aging for a while? Won’t it affect the harp overall? (I have no idea!)”
No, in a nutshell. Over time the neck will flex and strings stretch and the SB belly, which is why have to regulate our levers occasionally. But that is true for all of them. In fact, we only mount levers on a new harp after it has been strung and is holding tune for several weeks. Same goes for adding more later.
Thanks again!
Biagio
Yeah I guess I did throw in a curve Howard:-) As I wrote, I don’t think you can go wrong with a Ravenna 34 or Crescendo but if finances are a consideration and if giving an FH34 or FH36 a pass the MM harps are worth a look. The former Regency (now the Cheyenne) is a great harp too if one is OK with aircraft laminate SB (I am, when money is a consideration). I don’t know about fitting in a Dusty case for the Cheyenne but MM does provide cases (at an extra cost -$525) assuming you buy the kit.
Not to throw more sand in the works (well, OK yes) at $4699 for the finished harp they have on hand with gig bag (aka case) and Camac levers…that’s a sweet deal.
WRT building a kit and adding Camac levers: I talked with Cody (from Musicmakers) this morning and here’s the gist of what he said. They will sell the appropriate Camacs for their string set for $20 ea.; he also noted that they are trickier to install than Truitts – and I agree. Could be done though and bless his little heart, my bud Rick Kemper has a detailed instruction about them.
A few thoughts on levers in general for what they’re worth: Most beginner music is written for Celtic tunes so are in in Cmaj, with a few tunes in Gmaj or Fmaj. Those for meant for classical music are often written in Ebmaj. So to my way of thinking, if one intends to build rather than buy it makes sense to only get the needed levers at first. They are expensive!
Lovelands from the manufacturer $6, $14 from MM
Rees from Robinsons Harp Shop $11
Truitts from Betty Truitt $15
Camacs for the Voyageur or Cheyenne $20
Ouch!Cody mentioned their Universal levers; for what it’s worth I am not a fan of those for the quality of harp we are discussing. My personal choices in order –
Camacs and Truiits: tie but prefer to the latter for ease of installation*
Rees: also easy to install but not as heavy as the above
Lovelands: still a good workhorse by a pain to mount until you have lots of practice*Note: Camacs require metric drill bits and special wrenches for the bridge pins and that is costly – the screws holding the levers are right under the strings which is a pain. You also have to put some strength in holding them down when marking holes! All in all I much prefer Truitts for ease of installation!!
And just to throw another curve ball: there are alternate string designs for these two if one later decides they like a mellower more resonant tone. They would not have to buy new Truitts for those, they would for Camacs.
Isn’t it fun? Too many cooks spoil the broth and too many choices gets wacky:-)
Cheers,
BiagioEdit: For what it’s worth, if it were for myself and considering a kit I would get either the Cheyenne or Voyageur with C F and possibly B Truitts, planning to add more levers after a year or two. Hi Ho!
PS I’d also be happy to trek on down to help you – after selling all my tools I do miss making harps!! I live on Whidbey Island and have friends in Tacoma, so it would also be a fun change of scenery.
Wil you may know this already but here it is: the box for Ravennas (and Boulevard) is made from a single truncated triangle of Baltic birch plywood. That sheet is scored with grooves (seams), then glued in those grooves and folded up to form the box. That geometry results in the bulkier bottom; a less bulky bottom would require grooves that when glued up would not be as stable as the shape they came up with.
You will note that Dusty also covers the box with a thin sheet of laminate which serves to both strengthen those seams and reduce some of the brittle sound that plywood produces.
On the box in general: shape and volume is an ongoing debate among harp makers. Some lever harp makers prefer the box to be real wood, some think that a square shape like the Rees has better acoustics,some prefer to go the pedal route where that box is built up from thin sheets of laminate and formed in a vacuum press. You loose little of a solid wood’s sound that way but get more volume and a thinner lighter box.
While I’m in lecture mode: most agree that where the string access holes are placed and their size has a definite acoustic effect with smaller holes being preferred. If you look at the base of several modern harps they will have one or two large (3 inch diameter holes) – those truly do act as “sound holes” for projection, as opposed to what are mostly holes to get at the strings.
It’s safe to say that people study what has worked, modify that for modern materials in some cases, and then see what works for them. Obviously it is expensive to experiment with a harp design (grin) but it also safe to say that very rarely will the first of a new design will be a prototype, not what eventually ends up in the showroom:-)
Here’s a shout out to harp makers – they share their knowledge and thinking with each other all the time!
Biagio
