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Allison (and anyone else considering a double from scratch or modification), here is my basic design from a 2×26, range C below middle C to up to g. It’s where I start before tweaking for size, desired tone, and so on.
Read this across the columns as vibrating length (board to bridge pin), core gauge (inches), core gauge mm for FC where it can be substituted, core material, # bedding fibers, wrap type and gauge. If you use these exact specs you will end up with a harp about 38″ tall, 24″ wide and about 20 lbs. depending on the wood, etc. The SbB width is up to you: I prefer 5″ at the treble and 10-12″ at the bass.
If you want to play around with this, even if only for fun and interest…download Jerry’s string analysis worksheet and order his book on folk harp design. The latter comes with a handy string layout worksheet (“concert” spacing). You will have to make a few judgement calls for a double: how thick you make the neck, where to place tuning pins, whether you like the size or want to make it taller or shorter (with corresponding changes to vibrating length and composition).
This will have total tension of exactly 1,000 lbs. so do some thinking about the SB, where you place the ribs, reinforcing the neck, etc. Jerry’s book will cover most of that.
Have fun!
4 0.025 Nylon
4 1/2 0.025 Nylon
5 0.025 Nylon
5 1/2 0.028 Nylon
6 0.028 Nylon
6 1/2 0.028 Nylon
7 0.032 Nylon
8 0.032 Nylon
9 0.032 Nylon
10 0.032 Nylon
11 0.032 Nylon
12 0.036 Nylon
13 0.036 Nylon
14 0.040 Nylon
16 0.040 Nylon
18 0.040 0.91 Nylon
20 0.040 0.91 Nylon
22 0.045 0.95 Nylon
24 0.050 1.01 Nylon
25 0.050 1.01 Nylon
26 0.055 1.08 Nylon
27 1/4 0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.012
28 1/4 0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.015
29 1/4 0.016 Steel 7 Nylon 0.01
30 1/2 0.018 Steel 9 Nylon 0.01
31 0.020 Steel 12 Nylon 0.01I forgot about the “secret string thing”…..I’ve never quite understood that attitude from a practical stand point: anyone with a good micrometer and tape and access to a model can get the specs. For that matter, anyone studying enough pictures and descriptions can get pretty close. Consider that the strings are the heart and the sound board the soul – that’s where the effort really is. You can’t take apart it to study the board but the strings are out there. But here are some reasons that do make sense to me:
-Whether a hobbiest such as myself or a professional like Ray Mooers (Dusty Strings) all of us have worked long and hard to make something beautiful. There is a natural resentment to the thought of someone coming along and just duplicating that effort and then marketing it. That does happen, although usually they duplicators don’t last very long since they don’t otherwise know what they’re doing.
-If we published the exact string band specifications – Tension, %Tensile strength, T/L ratio, Impedance, Cross sectional board tension – most players’ eyes would roll. Most frankly are even afraid of the maths, including two professionals I know and greatly admire. They’re just not interested and possibly it would even detract from sales. “The proof is in the tone and feel” as it were.
-There are some generally accepted axioms about those parameters but there are some darn fine harps that violate them for good reasons – why confuse the issue?
Personally I wish makers would lighten up a little on this. I know players who will only order strings from the harp maker even though they KNOW he gets his strings from a professional string maker. I also know of players who are terrified of changing from nylon to gut or vice versa, which makes absolutely no sense. But there we are.
Just my two and a half cents.
Biagio
Yup, it’s a great topic for discussion, and we’ve really gotten into some nitty gritty. A number of new issues have been raised that are quite interesting. Here are a couple of thoughts/comments for what they’re worth (full disclosure: I’ll bet there are plenty who would disagree).
-On CVA glue and string surgery: No it will not hurt nylon. In fact, if you look at the ends of wound nylon strings you will observe CVA on the original knot. Acetone, which is a solvent, won’t hurt it either. The tricky parts are 1) getting the length right and 2) dealing with the winding’s memory (strings try to go back to where they were which in this case is a spiral snarl). For 1) ideally you don’t want the wrap creeping up over the tuning peg but it often will so some extra length of coating is a good idea. For 2) stretching the core between two clamps is a red hot idea. I only do this in an emergency though or when experimenting, it’s a right pain. No, it will not dull the tone – ideally it is only an inch or so at the bridge pin.
-On full levers: I guess it depends on whether you play in sessions a lot and with what kind of harp. Many wire strung players do not use sharping devices at all but usually they are in playing C G D or F so they’ll tune to one of those keys (usually G) and work around the others. Someone who plays a lot of classical music on nylon/gut would probably want a full set. Now we’re getting into an expensive harp! Consider a kit or low end double 23: my view is “Why spend about $1,000 US up front on levers alone for a kit or low end instrument that costs half that in terms of the other materials? Get the minimum and add more later yourself: it’s not hard.” There are some pretty obvious objections to that view!
On colored strings: I buy nylon in bulk and dye my own. Rit(r) Navy blue for Fs and Rit commercial Scarlet for Cs. Rit retail red formula will not work as they changed the formula. Metal, gut and FC can be “painted” with Dykem pattern makers layout fluid or an oil-based Sharpie pen.
On winding machines: They are not cheap to buy and tricky to build so way out of my league! Some adventurous folks have made them though. If anyone is interested in getting that deeply into harp design and construction a good place to start would be the Yahoo Harpmakers forum. A couple of folks their have made their own.
On making an “inexpensive” double strung: There are three ways to go here. The easiest is to buy an existing kit – Dwight Blevins makes several models as well as Gary Stone. Another is to modify a single strung kit; a number of people have done that to Music Maker’s Limerick and (now discontinued) Shepherd model or design your own. In the last two cases there will be some study involved. Start with Jerry Brown’s “Folk Harp Design and Construction” (Music Makers) which is for singles but gives you the basics. The third is to get a harp maker to design one for you and possibly help you build it. That’s not so far out as one might think – there are many small but excellent operations who would be interested.
One last note: Much beyond 3 1/2 octaves you will have to consider through pegs rather than zither and design gets a lot more complicated not to mention a top heavy harp.
Biagio
Wil, I imagine that response time depends on who get’s the query and how busy they are – I’ve always received and answer eventually (except from Pirastro for some reason). Lyon and Healy/Salvi are terrific on any question I’ve ever had on any subject.
If I’m in a hurry though I can almost always get the answer I need from another luthier, especially one who specializes in repair.
Some makers consider their string designs to be proprietary and one can understand why: that’s easily 90% of the total design time. One can also understand why folks like Dusty Strings have their own string winding machines!
Interesting side note since I’m babbling away: Melville Clark is the guy responsible for getting Dupont to make nylon instrument strings. Over 60 years ago for his “Irish Harp.”
Biagio
They (Savarez) do indeed sell wound strings but unfortunately (as is also true for Piastro, Bow Brand, etc) they do not tell you much beyond the intended use – e.g 6th octave (harp) X, guitar Y, double bass Z. This is not very useful to a lever harp designer, alas. As this thread has shown, we want to know composition (specifically core, bedding if any, winding type etc.) and vibrating length as well. Otherwise we pool resources, buy a bunch and compare notes (sorry, bad pun, but that’s what we do).
As the late Chris Caswell once observed, lever harp makers are at the bottom of the totem pole for instrument string makers. The harp standard was set for pedal instruments and that’s what many still use. And you still find teachers who tell their students “Never put gut on a harp designed for nylon.” What they mean (I hope!) is “Don’t use gut of the same gauge.” But you’re still going to be stuck asking “What does Bow Brand lever gut 3rd octave C actually mean?” Thanks to the tight luthier community we know, but try asking a string maker that. Some will tell you, some will not.
Interlude: Going back a bit earlier in the thread, you can perform surgery on a nylon wound string if it is long enough; here’s how. Coat the windings with “superglue” (CVA) about 1-2 inches inches below the intended vibrating length. Then peel off the windings above, tie a clove hitch – more CVA. Snip off the excess core to leave yourself 5-6 inches for ease in stringing.
Sometimes we find a “deal” such as a fishing tackle store going out of business and unloading their stock of fluorocarbon leaders. Yippee but we have to translate between “pound test” and millimeter. And so on.
I think I’ve rambled on much too long now – sorry!
Biagio
I have to admit, although the Rees’ are friends, that the Harpsicles fail to charm. After a good deal of constructive comment though, they do now offer better bass tension with NN. I suggested FC as well but the (logical) response was “Not really worth it on a model like this.” On the other hand, their doubles are the best out there IMHO.
My retreat harps were designed specifically as rentals for the retreat; but I did make one higher end. As you now know, string design is where it starts: with a good design there upgrading the box and SB takes an “OK for travel” to a really nice instrument (which in fact I did on one). That’s one of the “secrets” – when makers consider a new design they do a less expensive prototype to to tweak:-)
You end up paying a lot for a 2x mostly because of levers: Lovelands cost makers much less than Camacs or Truitts but they take twice as long to mount. So most makers charge almost as much. Personally I’ve never seen the merit on a small harp – heck, just learn to transpose or get at most Fs Cs and maybe Gs or Bs!
I came up with a “travel 19 double” with C below middle C on one side and G below middle C on the other (so each pair is a fifth apart) and I know it would sound great. However, Laurie said she would have to completely re-orient her playing for that so I haven’t done one (and probably won’t unless I get super bored).
Still, to my way of thinking so what? I mean, if the idea is a lot of harp in a small space that’s over 3 octaves in something just about 36″x14″x10″.
Oh well. Might do one for myself:-)
Double PS: I know that Robin Ward makes doubles and he’s in the UK last time I looked:
I think that the makers of doubles found that they could not get the profit margins on doubles that they could on singles so they really did not “push” them: workshops, retreats, etc. It still puzzles me though that players have not in general seen the advantages, there seems to be an impression that doubles are hard to learn. I’ve only been seriously studying playing for a couple of years but they don’t seem that hard to me. Especially when compared to a cross or a wire strung!
But then I’ve been more into design until recently:-) Now that I’ve discovered the beauty of the wire harp – no more building!
PS The D-D and E-E versions would not change so I just left them as in the previous post. On the D-D obviously I cut an pasted the string lengths too – whoops!
Hi Mae,
Below is what I come up with at C-C tuning with N, NN and SFC. I use an Excel spreadsheet usually which is free from Music Makers, here’s the link:
http://www.harpkit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MK&Category_Code=lib_stringanalysisIt’s a good idea to try to keep tension on the SB close to what Gary designed it for – the result of course is rather fat strings which will not be very beautiful. But this will work and of course you can load it into the MM worksheet, and use it as a basis to play around with a different range.
Consider this all a learning experience! I wish more players would go to the effort of understanding design issues as much. It would really help them in evaluating (for example) as used instrument on eBay:-)
I realize it is much to late to mention this, but I made seven double strung 23s for Laurie Riley’s retreat last year – range G below middle C up to a. Not that hard to do really, we’re not talking gorgeous tone. I call them the 2x equivalent to a Harpsicle:-)
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.008
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.015
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.015
0.014 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.018 Steel 8 Copper 0.005I forgot to address the storage question (I live in an earthquake area also). Aside from laying it on it’s back, the next best option is to stand it in a corner. The Ravenna comes with optional stand or drop down leg – if you did not get the stand you might consider one.
Have fun!
Congratulations Janis! I often suggest that Ravenna 34 for people just beginning. I often suggest a number of books and aides. Sylvia’s book is fine but it does not have a lot of information on technique and goes pretty quickly, so here are some others to consider:
Pam Bruner “Play the Harp Beautifully” Vols. 1 & 2 including DVDs
Maria Grossi “Metoda per Arpa”*
Yolanda Kondonassis “On Playing the Harp”*
*Although written for pedal harp most is transferable and the photos are excellent.Also very useful:
Laurie Riley “The Harpers Manual”
David Kolacny “Troubleshooting Your Lever Harp”In addition to Josh Layne, Laurie also teaches via Skype and of course there are more, those are just the two I happen to know personally.
Biagio
OK here we go…C-C:
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
1.08 Carbon
1.16 Carbon
1.25 Carbon
1.36 Carbon
1.40 Carbon
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 8 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 12 Copper 0.005D-D
6 0.032 Nylon
6 2/7 0.032 Nylon
7 0.032 Nylon
7 1/2 0.032 Nylon
7 7/8 0.032 Nylon
8 1/4 0.032 Nylon
9 0.036 Nylon
9 1/2 0.040 Nylon
10 1/4 0.84 Carbon
11 0.91 Carbon
11 5/6 0.91 Carbon
12 3/5 1.01 Carbon
13 2/5 1.08 Carbon
14 1/6 1.08 Carbon
15 1.16 Carbon
16 1/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
17 1/3 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
18 1/2 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
19 2/3 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
21 2/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
22 6/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
24 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005E-E
0.028 Nylon
0.028 Nylon
0.028 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.050 Nylon
0.050 Nylon
0.055 Nylon
0.060 Nylon
0.060 Nylon
1.32 Carbon
0.014 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005oops we have a formatting problem: those two FC strings are in millimeters (ignore the .032, that would be for nylon but I rejected that for those two strings).
Hi Mae,
I’m happy to take a gander at these options but first a question: would you consider a US source for the wound strings? I’m sure you realize after all that number crunching you are going to end up with some wound strings. IMHO copper over fiber bed steel will sound yucko – nylon wrap would be vastly preferable. You can order those from Vermont Strings as one of my Italian friends does. For now, here’s what I come up with for C-C tuning; you read this as core gauge, core material, #bedding fibers, wrap material, wrap gauge:
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.032 0.84 Carbon
0.032 0.91 Carbon
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.016 Steel 10 Nylon 0.01
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.013
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.015
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.015
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.015
0.018 Steel 12 Nylon 0.015
