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It has been a pleasure Howard; as you can tell some of us love to “talk harp”, maybe too much LOL.
I’ve hesitated to bring this up since you have clearly done your “homework” and both the Ravenna 34 and the Crescendo are fine harps (plus, I like my friends at Dusty!). However….if you would like to save some money and are reasonably good with basic hand tools one other option would be a kit – specifically the Musicmakers Voyageur:
https://www.harpkit.com/voyageur-harp-kit.html
That was my second harp before I got into custom designs, and it was a breeze to build.
It is an excellent intermediate grade harp, fully as good as the Crescendo – examine the instructions on the website to see if that lies within your interest and available tools.
Your only “challenge”would be mounting levers if you decide that you really want Camacs..you would have to order those from Camac or perhaps Dave or Ray could help. I notice that Musicmakers does provide either Truitts or Camacs on the finished kit so that is another possibility. They are wonderful people to work with too!
Another nice thing about this kit: it is easy to customize with, for example, a spruce sound board (built to specs by Rick Kemper) and/or a different string set – which would run another $500 or so on top of the kit price of about $1,500. So for a concert grade harp equivalent to a Dusty FH34 you would be looking at
Kit: $1,500
Spruce SB $250
Other strings $200 (optional, for lower range or different tone)
Levers 15/ea. $510
Total about $2510I don’t know about a soft case though I’d bet it would definitely fit in a Dusty CD36 – about $525, which I could give you for a lot less if you want to consider this option.
Well, just a thought but if it does interest you let me know and we can discuss details about construction or anything else offline.
Best wishes,
BiagioI guess that is an individual thing. Speaking for myself, the less there is on stage the better and playing from memory at least lets me improvise when I freeze up!
Great pointer Wil, I had forgotten about Ray Pool’s online lessons! Your comment about self-teaching is also right on the money – I say that from personal experience (rueful grin).
Howard, we tend to beat this to death – “Get a teacher” – but don’t let that discourage you. Of course some people continue lessons all their lives (honestly) in the form of workshops master classes, but most of us do not.
At the start you asked “How long before I can probably play well?” and I kinda skirted that question. Let me put it this way:
I got in through the back door so to speak (and still enjpy harp design more than playing haha) , with no background at all in music; after stumbling around trying to self-teach started lessons with Jocelyn and later Laurie. After a year or so had pretty good technique but not too great at sight reading
On the other hand, a friend who played classical guitar and piano was actually teaching within two years.
Do though try to join a local harp circle and the Puget Sound Folk Harp Society. We hold two annual retreats and an Fall picnic where you will meet people like the Thornahlens, Harper Tasche, Laurie Riley, Ray and Sue Mooers (owners of Dusty Strings), and many others.
Don’t worry about travel either – almost everyone carpools!
Biagio
It takes time to get your hands to perform well in harp technique, whatever the style and yes, you will get the clearest tone by closing all the way to the palm. That may not always be realistically possible at speed but when first developing your “muscle memory” that is how we all start (except on wire).
Here’s the deal: you cannot play with ease and fluidity if the hand and arm are tense, but when you first start to learn your finger muscles may not have developed to the point where you can get volume while keeping the finger also relaxed until you pluck. There is also a harmful tendency by beginners to pull with the arm and/or lean to the side. These and other pointers are why we all recommend at least some study with a professional. Do not just follow any old player that turns up in a search.
There are many subtleties: squeezing the string slightly before the pluck, using the release as a “spring board” to the next pluck, placing in advance, being able to do an effective raise without losing your place, etc.
For starters, of all the examples on Youtube, Chris Caswell’s explanation I think is the clearest for when you first approach the harp; here’s the first of four:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoAZDY9TyD8&list=RD3hDdAph0sgo&index=9
I would suggest a couple of other things to help you with these observations. First, study the lessons freely given by Josh Layne (Harp Tuesdays):
Second, when you are ready to purchase books, do buy either Metoda Arpa by Maria Grossi (it’s in Italian but there may be translations) or On Playing the Harp by Yolanda Kondonassis (in English). They are all three highly respected harpists and teachers.
Kondonassis and Grossi teach Salzedo method (or taught in the case of Maria), I’ve never asked Josh about that. I really don’t think it matters if the style is Salzedo or Grandjany or some other in the beginning. The important thing is to get a solid foundation from a qualified teacher.
Other great players with videos on Youtube include Laurie Riley, Marta Cook and Grainne Hambly (all Celtic harpers).
A student once asked Laurie “How do I master technique?” Her answer: “Do everything incredibly slowly at first, and in rhythm .”
Full disclosure: I studied harp making with Chris and studied lever harp under Laurie, with early pedal harp with Jocelyn Chang..
Hope that helps!
BiagioTasche plays all the lever harp sound samples on the Dusty Strings website except the Boulevard, which is played by Marianne Sussman. She is primarily a pedal harpist, though she also plays lever harp. They are recorded just with a mike – no mixers, equalizers etc. So what you hear there is what you get in the hands of a very experienced harper or harpist.
A trip to DS would be a good idea, and aside from their own models they sometimes have others on consignment. I came within a gnat’s whisker once from buying an Excaliber haha. So , yeah, by all means take a field trip to their Fremont music shop,and while you are in Seattle also visit their HQ and factory in Ballard. That alone is worth a trip!
In fact, if you ask my advice I’d visit in the reverse order – first tour the factory to see the harps being made and talk with the crafts people; then try the harps on the floor with a deeper understanding of the models’ differences.
Have fun, they’re wonderful people!
BiagioHi Howard,
Those Yahoo! forums…one must be member to take full advantage of the wealth of knowledge in them. TBD as you say however, and the VHC has been rather quiet of late.
I do think that aesthetics can be almost as important as tone and economics so no reason to be “ashamed.” A beautiful harp is an inducement to play!
We argue about all sorts of things – strings, technique, sound boards, tension, the box size and shape, the proper glues to use, how to construct the joints, and ya dee ya dee. Sometimes the discussions get heated but I think you will find that the harp world is one of the most generous with shared knowledge anywhere, with very few exceptions.
I personally may disagree with others on some points for instance, but I often come at many questions from the standpoint of a harp maker rather than a player. That does make me an authority, and we are still very good friends. The more opinions the better!
Certainly finances are a consideration; in general I advise buying the best harp one can afford. A solid wood sound board as on the FHs will improve over time while a high density laminate as on the Ravennas/Crescendo/Boulevard will not (at least, not much). OTOH it will cost more (grin).
It is probably a good idea to assume that the first harp will not be the last; most players I know have at least two, often more (I have three and at one time had eight – gasp!) So it may be a good idea to go with something less expensive like the Ravenna or Crescendo at first.
It will also depend on the venue; those who often play outdoors like a laminate board and nylon strings, which do not react to humidity as much as do solid wood and gut. I mentioned Harper Tasche; he often plays a Dusty for FH indoors (mahogany and spruce SB) and a Boulding Oran Mor (laminate board) outside.
In any case I don’t think you can go wrong with a Dusty, Thormahlen, Rees, Camac, Boulding or other established maker if you like the feel, tone and etc.
Best wishes and enjoy the journey!
BiagioNot to butt in Howard but your post reminded me: there are two other forums you might consider joining: the Harplist and the Virtual Harp Circle. Both are Yahoo! groups, the latter was set up originally explicitly for beginning “harperists”. It is easier to reply directly from them than it is here.
The Ravenna 34 would be an excellent choice and there is a ready market for second hand ones if you should decide later. So too in the Crescendo though I am not sure that the solid wood body justifies the additional cost – both use the same kind of sound board and the same strings. The Crescendo is perhaps prettier and some people believe the cherry box adds a better tonal dimension but I am not among them.
Ducking out now (grin)
BiagioHee hee Balfour! Please tell Carol Lynn I have it on good authority that malted milk cows are a special Scottish highland breed; the calves are nurtured on The Macallan Old Cask whiskey.
Harp hugs to all,
BiagioHoward, I compliment you on how you are going about this research: asking the right questions talking with Sylvia and looking at other sources of information. The next two steps would be 1) interview one or more harp teachers and 2) try several different harp models. I’d bet you are already doing that though!
At some point you will probably look into music books; may I strongly recommend two other books that I believe every lever harper should acquire? These are “Trouble Shooting Your Lever Harp” by David Kolacny and “A Harper’s Manual” by Laurie Riley. They cover many topics that are not found in the common harp books but the information addresses questions that appear in harp forums again and again.
WRT to recent posts….We’re moving pretty far away but what the heck:
It should go without saying that the technician will choose the proper size lever for a given string. Some lever makes have tighter tolerances than others, but that is not something the player needs to think about unless they plan to change things on their own.
I haven’t researched Camacs for the specific lever sizes since I prefer Truitts, but one could find out by asking a harp maker who uses them (Dusty, Sligo Harps for instance) or writing directly to Camac.
I agree with Wil on her point about vibrating length. The harp’s unique charm lies to a large degree in the audible overtones and longer strings will (usually) make them more perceptible. Greater length also means higher tension so it’s a balancing act between diameter and length.
A longer string also makes it easier to play harmonics – so there’s that.
String types often come up here; I don’t want to hijack this thread with a long technical discussion but just make three points:
1) A harp is designed with tension in mind. It is an extremely bad idea to put higher tension strings on a harp designed for lower tension; vice versa it will sound dull.
2) Much confusion surrounds pedal gut versus lever gut. The ONLY difference between them is that the first are larger diameter than the second for any given note (frequency). Larger diameter means higher tension and THAT IS ALL. As I wrote elsewhere on this forum “farmers do not keep pedal gut cows in one pasture and lever gut cows in another.”
3) The harp maker has a particular set in mind when the harp is designed, but all whom I know personally (which is most of the major names in the US) will change the standard set if the customer wishes (e.g. gut instead of nylon or vice versa, fluorocarbon instead of either, bronze core versus steel core wound strings and so on).
For more information easily found on the ‘net, read what Dusty and Thormahlen have to say about this. The point is that you are not locked into a standard model’s string set.
Biagio
There are several “named” hand positions in the classical repertoire and they are often adopted to the lever harp; Salzedo, modified Salzedo, Grandjany and variations thereof. None of these or any other should be followed rigidly, they serve as a basis while developing early technique, strength and dexterity.
As those develop you will find the positions that are best suited to your physique. The main difference (if any) between pedal technique and lever wrt hand position relate to the usually wider spaced higher tension strings on the pedal harp and the fact that it is almost always played with the finger pads Id est, you can’t just flick the finger and get a good tone, as you can with lower tension strings (or wire). Plucking a lighter tension with the same strength as you would on a higher one would sound horrible, and possibly cause physical injury.
There are other techniques as well. To explore these and much more information I highly recommend watching Catrin Finch’s documentary “History of the Harp” on Youtube.
Edit: Charles, I generally use a modified Salzedo with thumbs high and fingers somewhat down but “it depends”. For example I often use the thumb alone when plucking down in the treble hand. Another favorite in some cases I’ll leave the thumb free and walk the other fingers, crossing them over or under. I’ve been told that’s “an advanced technique” but it just sorta came about naturally. The one stems from wire harp, the other from South American, I was told later. I also use finger slides probably more than I should LOL.
As to the raise: a high raise looks dramatic and emphasizes the phrase end but that is the only purpose that it serves IMO. A “good” raise serves to relax the arm and hand and get them away from the air vibrations, it should not distract from the music (personal opinion). Harper Tasche is the “raise master”!
Hi Howard,
I can answer the first two questions and Wil has addressed the third:
Celtic style ornamentation: this is often not written out but you could equate some of them to what you do on a piano: trills, runs, and grace notes for instance. That style evolved from the aural tradition and played on a wire strung harp- the player adds ornaments as they wish, somewhat arbitrarily. For a good example listen to Wild Geese here, as played by Chris Caswell:
Of course that is a wire strung – one can duplicate it and notate it for nylon/gut but of course it will not have the same clear ring. For some examples on nylon strung listen to a selection by Laurie Riley and Michael McBean:
Yes, tight strings as on a concert tension harp make that difficult as you need a lot of strength and control to get that speed. A medium tension lever harp such as a Dusty Strings, Thormahlen or Rees is fine.
Laurie has several books out with music scored specifically for the double; but really any music written for the single can be played on the double. Once you have learned to coordinate your eyes for the two rows and learned some of the special techniques your range of expression increases dramatically. I know of one person who started out on the double right away.
The cross strung is a different animal, with a very different technique; the best known exponent of that harp is Harper Tasche:
Incidentally, Laurie is brokering a double on her website at a very attractive price – look under Double Strung Harps for Sale. I don’t know how committed you are at this point but if you want to pursue these topics in more depth you might order Laurie’s DVD “Secrets of the Celtic Style”; I believe her “Introduction to the Double Strung Harp” is on Youtube.
You might also see if there is a bus to Corvalis and arrange to meet with Dave and Sharon Thormahlen. David is the harp maker, Sharon the player and composer:
You might also write to the Puget Sound Folk Harp Society and ask about harpers in your immediate area (Diane Moss, secretary) -I know there are a bunch (including Sharon and Dave):
http://www.pugetsoundfolkharpsociety.org/
Best wishes,
BiagioI suppose that everyone hears differently and certainly if you play near the top or bottom of the strings it will sound very much like a classical guitar. VERY low tensioned harps with wide light sound boards such as the South American sound that way intentionally.
So much depends on both the strings and board not to mention the player’s technique that it is difficult to make generalizations. The only way to tell how a harp will sound in your hands is to sit down and play. That in itself is not an entirely good guide for a beginner since technique will be undeveloped, so it is best to bring along an experienced player when trying out different harps.
There are many excellent harps out there; I agree with Wil that it is a good idea to rent before buying.
Hi Howard,
In an attempt to answer to your questions…
WRT transposing the hands, that can be done (and often is) on smaller harps and the double that Wil mentioned. Or you could simply lean the harp on your left shoulder rather than the right, in which case you would probably want a harp with the levers on the right side (assuming a lever rather than pedal harp).
You will not have to go through learning music theory so that’s a plus, but harp technique takes time to learn. Being a keyboard player suggests that you can probably sight read so eye-hand coordination is probably there too. There are two answers to “how long” I’d suggest:
First, try to find a harp teacher in your area. Often a teacher has student harps to lend or rent and can advise you more specifically than we can here.
Second, browse Laurie Riley’s website and perhaps even write with your questions. Laurie has done a lot of work with handicapped harpers; and as someone mentioned plays the double strung (in fact she and Liz Cifani came up with the idea of the modern double). Laurie is a very gracious lady, and excellent teacher, and also teaches over the internet. Here is her website (again) so you can see what she offers see in particular two books – Harping with a Handicap and Harping with One Hand:
Best wishes,
BiagioAs a sidebar, a harpist friend of mine, Barbara Fackler, performs with her husband who plays French Horn – it might interest you to browse the website:
I’d say it rather depends on what kind of music you wish to play and the strength in your left ring finger. It is true that the 1-5-8 (or 1-3-5-8; these refer to the notes in an octave) is a fundamental pattern but a good teacher can show you ways to play that without using your ring finger, if necessary.
Charles has discussed tension and string diameters so no need to continue on that topic. However, I would say that there are many styles of both the instrument and music. that those who have only seen ladies in flowing skirts or gentlemen in tails playing a pedal harp may not be aware. One that springs to mind is the wire strung harp, aka clarseach.
The wire harps are generally smaller than gut or nylon strung harps and the long ring obviates the gut/nylon harp’s large chords. Some get really “traditional” and there is a perception that these harps must be played with the finger nails, but honestly that is a fallacy.
A good 3.5 octave wire strung can cost anywhere from $3000+ for the traditional make (soundboard from a single hollowed out log, mortise and tenon frame) to about $1000 for one made with modern methods.
There are at least two here who play the clarseach; Barb Fackler whom I mentioned also plays that as well as lever and pedal harps.
Hope that helps,
Biagio
