Home › Forums › How To Play › Theory vs Practice vs Reality
- This topic has 37 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by Biagio.
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October 20, 2019 at 10:45 am #232818leisesturmParticipant
Thanks Wil. I read Biagio’s post again and now infer (thanks to your edit) that Dave (Thormahlen) might work on a harp that he did not build. I will ignore the (unintended I am sure) slight to my aptitude for figuring out the mounting of a few sharping levers.
I should tell you that I haven’t really heard a Ravenna except through my computers soundcard and speakers. Another poster in another thread characterized the Ravenna as being ‘plinkier’ than a Crescendo and went as far as to say a Crescendo sounds “10 times better” than a Ravenna.
Interesting that. But what really has me scratching my head is the fact that a L&H Ogden is cheaper than just about any of the other instruments (Ravenna excepted) in its 34 string class. It is bigger, heavier, and has the L&H cachet going for it but still doesn’t break the bank for all that. What is going on?
The Harp world is interesting to be sure. The L&H instruments look like a LOT of harp for the money and usually that means a second rate manufacturer. I don’t get the impression that people consider L&H ‘second rate’. But I don’t really want a pedal tension instrument to start out with. The Ogden is also 38lbs. I suppose it has to be built very strong to withstand the pedal tension tuning. It might be nice to have as an instrument that stays at home.
I’m sure I’ll change my mind by tomorrow or the day after that. Watch this space. 🙂
October 20, 2019 at 11:45 am #232881BiagioParticipantHi Howard,
I also think that is an excellent plan and indeed what I would probably do myself. You even may find that you like the Ravenna enough to keep buy it after renting for a while – many people take that route ie first rent then buy later. Some might even have rent-to-own policies (I don’t know if Dusty does).
In any case, that will give you some time to get familiar with the lever harp in general, mingle with others try out their favorites. And of course while saving quite a bit in the beginning.
Thormahlen is an independent lever harp maker, one of the best known in the PNW along with Dusty Strings, Blessley, and Boulding.
Yeah, guess I wasn’t too clear on this, sorry:-).
I suggested contacting them for two reasons: 1) because the make excellent harps and 2) if I (or you) want to build from a kit, put on Camac levers, but do not want to go through the hassle of mounting them it makes sense to have a professional who uses them do the job.
A case is nice to have if you often go to retreats, gathering and so on but I would not buy one immediately either. For several years I just used a “tucked and tailored” sleeping bag for my largest harp (which was even bigger than the Cheyenne.
Got a lot of laughs over that at retreats: it had bunny pictures on it!
Cheers,
BiagioEdit: Just read the most recent posts, here are my comments:
1) Mounting levers is a precision job and especially for the more complicated ones even if one has a lot of experience. I estimate that even with Truitts (the easiest to mount) it can take me 10 minutes each. I’ve resisted Camacs because I did not want to spend $100 for metric bits and even more time on a lever that is only marginally better than the Triutt if at all. Camacs have become very popular so there’s the “market mind” but I could name many excellent players who still are happy with Lovelands. If a player wants a particular kind, (and does not want to build) heck, buy a harp with it. Let’s not get all balled up in a lever discussion (grin).
2)”Plinkyness”: The very short treble strings (4″ or even less) simply do not have the sustain as longer ones lower down and cannot move the soundboard as much. That is true for ALL harps. Further, those laminate boards as on the harps we’ve been discussing are harder than spruce (or mahogany in the case of the FH series) so they resist the string force more. In the end, the players technique will determine how plinky they sound. So: is the Ravenna plinkier than the Crescendo? Depends on who is playing it and who is listening!!
3) Wil clearly prefers harps with higher tension gut strings and I prefer those with medium tension and nylon strings. That’s fine as far as it goes but we could go round and round with our personal favorites (I happen to love the Sligo Luchair for instance, while the Tormahlen Cieli is very popular here among Celtic players) and just confuse the issue LOL. The Ravenna is a great harp at a very reasonable price so I say “go for it” and rent if you can.
October 20, 2019 at 12:10 pm #232883carl-swansonParticipantHoward,
“But what really has me scratching my head is the fact that a L&H Ogden is cheaper than just about any of the other instruments (Ravenna excepted) in its 34 string class. It is bigger, heavier, and has the L&H cachet going for it but still doesn’t break the bank for all that. What is going on?”
Ask someone at Lyon & Healy where those harps are being made. Are they made in the U.S.A? Or outside of the U.S., like at their factory in China?
October 20, 2019 at 12:43 pm #232889wil-wetenParticipantL&H is a relatively big company and parts of the lever harps and cheaper pedal harps are being built in China, though the harp itself is still put together in the US. (The same is the case with Salvi harps, being built partly in China and partly in Italy).
So, that is mass production versus artisanal production.
It’s also using layered and colored wood versus mainly solid wood. This doesn’t say anything about the sound and quality. I love L&H harps. And I love Camac harps. The great thing about Camac harps is that they are completely built in France by people working in a safe environment and earning a decent salary for their work. And Camac harps still are nice priced (at least in Europe)…
Yes, Biagio, I do like heavily strung harps, but I do like medium strung harps as well. Therefore I have both a L&H Prelude as well as a Camac Excalibur and I was tempted to buy a harp with an even lower tension. Some pieces I like to play on one harp and other pieces on the other harp.
Howard, as to someone believing the Crescendo sounding 10 times better than the Ravenna, I’m afraid there are people who unwittingly add the nice looks of a a partly solid wooden instrument to its nice sound.
Frankly, I think the Dusty Ravenna is a real nice harp and still rather transportable. For a significantly better sound, I would buy a 36 strung Dusty, but then, apart from the price, transportability would be a stumble block.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 6 months ago by wil-weten.
October 20, 2019 at 1:16 pm #232891BiagioParticipant>Yes, Biagio, I do like heavily strung harps, but I do like medium strung harps as well. Therefore I have both a L&H Prelude as well as a Camac Excalibur and I was tempted to buy a harp with an even lower tension. Some pieces I like to play on one harp and other pieces on the other harp.<
Big grin Wil, and there we have it in a nutshell – that’s exactly why many of us have several harps. Admittedly, harp lust can get a little crazy. I’ve been corresponding with a teacher in Brussels who has 10 harps plus a piano and is thinking of adding a double strung (!).
Rent to own…Dusty has a very good plan – find it on the Music Store part of the website.
October 20, 2019 at 1:57 pm #232902wil-wetenParticipantRight, Biagio! I know a lot of people who have several harps, all with different sound qualities, comfort of playing and transportability. And I may probably forget other qualities that may be relevant.
And, Howard, as you think of getting a pedal harp (by default strung with hard tension strings!) later, I guess, the full and rich sound of lever harps with a hard tension may be to your liking. I think the main point is whether your left hand could handle such a strong tension and and of course, how important it is to you to be able to play fast celtic music on it.
Here some harps which were earlier for sale at the Atlanta Harp Center. Though video clips don’t give an authentic sound, one still can kind of compare them when they are played in the same room with the same tune.
A Dusty Ravenna: https://youtu.be/Vo0Y-nB67hI
A Dusty Crescendo: https://youtu.be/rPjBuEYjX94
A Dusty FH36S: https://youtu.be/u8keihS61KA
A Music Maker Voyageur: https://youtu.be/NlewWqjlCzk
A L&H Ogden: https://youtu.be/NrNVIqGFLkw
A Thormahlen Swan: https://youtu.be/sUK_l2iddlQ
A Thormahlen Serenade: https://youtu.be/CtOAQyREx4U
A Camac Korrigan: https://youtu.be/2irZPQdjnYE
A Camac Isolde: https://youtu.be/exbaLIaK5Ss
October 20, 2019 at 4:21 pm #232912BiagioParticipantWell it has been a stimulating discussion and I have enjoyed it. Summing up and if I understand Howard correctly:
You have investigated it all thoroughly and want a reasonably priced harp to begin learning to play. We’ve considered a good selection in that category, which is comparatively narrow compared to the very large number of more expensive instruments. From where I sit, renting a Ravenna makes a great deal of sense.
Howard, you also seem to be of a studious nature; if you want to understand more about exactly how harps are made there are plenty of resources but for an excellent discussion all in one place, take a look at Sligo Harps:
Rick discusses how he makes them, comments on some different approaches, delves into string design (although he avoids wound strings which gets complicated), gives detailed remarks on several lever designs and considers the unique stresses on a lever harp.
He’s a retired engineer but you can ignore some of the more esoteric stuff and concentrate on the ideas. He only writes about some ways of making the critical joints (neck-pillar and neck-body) – I can think of a half dozen ways of making either just off the top of my head so again, just consider the concepts:-)
Best wishes,
BiagioOctober 22, 2019 at 7:45 am #233108wil-wetenParticipantHi Howard, as you mentioned that transportability is an issue, as you don’t have a car, I think you might consider a double strung harp. Yes, a 26 or 27 strung double doesn’t have bass strings, but still you can play them on the other side of the harp, just an octave higher than usual.
Pro double string: easily transportable, you may take ‘difficult’ stretches by the hand that manages best to grasp them (and they are levered at both sides, which in your case may be another advantage) and you’ve got a few extra tricks on your sleeve. You like the sound of Dusty’s, so you may like the double strung Dusty as well. https://manufacturing.dustystrings.com/harps/browse-models/fh26-double-strung
Anyway, after reading the two thread you have started on this forum and watching the videoclips we linked to, I guess you are ready to travel to some harp shops and discover which harps suits you best at the moment.
I do hope you will be sharing your experiences when trying out the harps. And of course, I you decide to built one from a kit, we would love to read about your experiences (preferably with pictures of the several phases of building).
And if deciding proves to be hard, renting a Dusty Ravenna 34 is a great way to start your harping voyage.
Edit: I forgot to mention the Heartland carbon fiber harps. They are very light, so more easily transportable than other harps. I probably forgot to mention them as they are not my cup of tea. But still, I think they deserve to be mentioned.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by wil-weten.
October 22, 2019 at 1:51 pm #233139leisesturmParticipantRe: Transportability. I have a really high tolerance for the impact of a large instrument on transport. Car free transport. I have an 88 key hammer-weighted piano action Yamaha Keyboard that weighs 90lbs. I don’t hump it to gigs often, but I do it one or two times a year. When I mentioned ‘portable’ in my first thread I meant an acoustic instrument that is more portable than a real piano.
In that “Ultimate Buyers Guide” on Stephanie Claussens site I was intrigued to note that Ravenna 34’s and anything larger all get a ‘N’ in the ‘transportable’ section. Really? My Horn in its case is 22lbs. A Ravenna doesn’t weigh much more. It is far more unwieldy but that is not really a deal breaker. Mass transit in my area will allow me to get just about anywhere with a Ravenna on my back. Even weekly.
I wouldn’t want to do it every week, but mass transit would also allow me to get to anywhere I can think of with a L&GH Prelude on a trolley. For anything bigger there is Uber, or whoever it is that wants me to bring my harp there. I have kept very, very quiet about my … penchant for car free living. The latest harpmobile thread keeps taunting me to say something, however, I understand an unwillingness to risk a $40G Concert Grand harp on the Subway. I am reasonable 🙂 But I myself would risk it. Maybe not with a Concert Grand, but absolutely a 44 String. Now that I would post pictures of. I am less sure about faithfully documenting the build-out of a harp kit. Would a ‘before’ of the just opened box of pieces and an ‘after’ of the completed project work?
October 22, 2019 at 2:20 pm #233140wil-wetenParticipantSo, Howard, do I understand correctly that were you live, you don’t have to struggle to get your instruments through tourniquets in order to be able to get to the kind of mass transit in your area?
As to the build-out of a harp kit, just share the pictures and stories that you really like to share. Btw, I always love to see how raw wood changes into beautifully polished would with a nice grain… 🙂
So, my nine links in my message above of two days ago, obviously didn’t make you change your mind about your current plans. I am glad, that I didn’t manage to make you hesitate which way wood be the best for you. Please, keep us posted on your next steps.
October 22, 2019 at 2:39 pm #233141leisesturmParticipantCorrect. There are no … tourniquets (turnstiles?:-) on Portland Light Rail. You just wave your HOP card at the little reader and walk on the train if it is there waiting. More than one rider has realized with a shock that they have not paid when one of the random “fare checks” commences. $75 for a first offense. Ouch.
>So, my nine links in my message above of two days ago, obviously didn’t make you change your mind about your current plans.< Was that your intention? Well, lets just say that a Ravenna 34 is still in play but moving onto a used L&H Troubador at $2700 vs a months long build out of a Cheyenne … but lets keep that entre nous because I don’t want Biagio to know. He is pretty invested in the woodworking aspect of harping. BTW did you notice your spelling of ‘would’ in your last paragraph? Hee hee.
- This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by leisesturm.
October 22, 2019 at 2:43 pm #233143BiagioParticipant>In that “Ultimate Buyers Guide” on Stephanie Claussens site I was intrigued to note that Ravenna 34’s and anything larger all get a ‘N’ in the ‘transportable’ section. Really?<
I could not find the reference but I assume she is thinking about the height, rather than weight, and may be thinking in terms of airline travel. In any case, it would be wise to put it in a case if using public transport.
I envy you the car-free living, wish I could! Oh well, one of the down sides to living on an island:-)
About documenting a harp build out…when I have I’ve taken pictures of each critical step with comments:
1) String band design and drafting of the profile – sides and front with detailed measurements. This step always comes first and is the most time consuming part of the whole thing:-)
2) Detail of critical joints and method -neck-pillar, neck-body, pillar foot-base. I itemize required hardware at this point.
3) Use the full size draft to make templates
4) Start making sawdust including any required jigs or fixtures. First the sound box with open front and back; next neck-pillar assembly; next sound board and back.
5) Test fit all parts and make adjustments (there are always adjustments)
6) Sand sand sand, spray SB with nitrocellulose lacquer
7) Put it all together again and if all is hunky dory start applying finish (I really like Tru-oil gun stock finish)
8) Add pins pegs and string grommets; string her up
9) Twiddle thumbs a couple of weeks while waiting for tune to hold; then add levers.Hi ho. I have almost convinced myself to do that Cheyenne up grade so it might not be long haha.
Biagio
October 22, 2019 at 2:53 pm #233146wil-wetenParticipantThanks for correcting me, Howard. So,I just changed ‘wood’ into ‘would’.
Haha, Biagio will understand. We all have our little hobbies. :)’As to a 2nd hand L&H Troubadour, nice price, probably a nice harp… The Troubadour has longer bass strings than the Ogden, and longer bass strings simply sound fuller than shorter ones. The Ogden comes with a nice rucksack (at least where I live), but the Troubadour doesn’t, unfortunately.
Like all current L&H lever harps, the Troubadour will be strung with pedal gut. Older L&H lever harps may be strung with lighter string tension. You may like to know that there are different Troubadour harps, models I-VI if I am not mistaken… and yest, they are really different, not only in price.October 22, 2019 at 2:54 pm #233147VeronikaParticipantThe FH34 is smaller than the FH36 and you’d be missing only the top two strings compared to the FH36. You can get a cart thingy to pull the harp while walking. I think the Dusty case also has straps that would allow you to carry the harp as a backpack. I have an FH34 in bubinga, which is by far the heaviest version, and I can carry it some distance – I wouldn’t want to take it on public transport, but it would be doable.
October 22, 2019 at 2:57 pm #233149wil-wetenParticipantHi Biagio, I would love to follow your stories and pictures of the Cheyenne if you would decide to build that harp.
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