Troubadour VI neck joint separation

[cmc]

Hi, I’m considering purchasing a used Troubadour VI that has a slight tilt towards the strings at the neck and pillar joint. A metal plate was already placed on the opposite side to reinforce the joint, and a hairline separation is visible under the plate where the two joints are glued together. I’ve been told by Lyon and Healy that this is common with the Troubadours. My question is, will this get worse (even with the plate reinforcement) and be an expensive repair down the road? Does this affect the value of the harp? Thank you to anyone who can offer any insight !

• This topic was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by cmc.

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[charles-nix]

I have both a Dusty Strings and a Blevins in the shop right now with similar problems.

IMO:
the metal plate by itself provides very little extra reinforcement. Essentially, its ultimate added strength is limited by the shear strength of the screws acting in their countersink holes. It is not much compared with a proper joint. And that is not much additional strength compared with the near-concert tension on a Troubadour.

Did they only add the plate, or was the neck joint re-glued or otherwise altered at the same time? Did a harp technician do the repair? If the owner doesn’t know, it may help to know that a proper joint repair is _impossible_ to do without restringing. IOW, if it wasn’t restring, then the plate is all that was done.

It absolutely affects the value, regardless of how well it was done. However, if it was done well, by someone who knew what to do, and the strings were off the harp for the repair, it shouldn’t lower the value much, and it should be a substantial long-lasting repair. If that applied plate is all there is to the “repair,” then it affects the value drastically, because it will not hold long-term, and the sooner proper repairs are made, the better.

A better question is “how does the harp sound?” That repair is certainly possible, and not terribly expensive–maybe $1000 plus restringing/regulation. If you like the sound of the harp, and the price is right, I wouldn’t run away from it. But I would find out all the details of the repair, and be sure it is reflected in the price.

[Shane Stewart]

Hi CMC,

Charles-Nix is correct with regard to the metal plate only providing minimal support as it is really only the shear strength of the screws that provide the support. As unsightly as the brass plate is, it will hide the solution I will detail as follows.
The separation of the neck and pillar joint is unfortunately a flaw in the design. However a good solution is to add in some wooden ties through the joint. In this case hidden under the brass plate. IF the brass plate is removed and some trenches routed in with some wooden inserts glued in place the joint can be reinforced mitigating any future failure of the joint. Prior to doing the reinforcement you would just have to relax the strings to allow the joint to close up. Even to clamp a flat plate across the joint to align it to a flat position prior to installing the ties would be great to get a straight alignment of the neck/pillar joint. Why makers don’t do this is beyond me.

[charles-nix]

Shane Stewart is perfectly correct: Inlaying a strong wood tie across the joint is one way to strengthen it. This can also takes the form of a double dovetail (bow-tie) look. It requires skill to cut and bed the inlay properly–but it is very strong.

I have not found it easy to work with strings only slackened. Harps I have seen have failed across the entire joint by the time they got to me, so I plan on a complete disassembly to clean up the old glue. And I usually can’t get the old joint closed up completely without clamp and caul from the opposite side. But ones I have seen were completely separated, with some cup in the neck as well. I always re-glue with epoxy, which will stick to old glue remains, and will not creep the way PVA glue does.

The mystery to me is whether L&H changed the construction on the Troubadours. It is odd to hear of a Troub VI failing, when I know of a number of Is and IIIs and IVs that are still perfect. Maybe just from the small number of samples I’ve seen.

[cmc]

Thank you Charles-Nix and Shane Stewart for your responses. I am buying the harp for my daughter, who is a complete beginner, so we know nothing about harps yet. I had always heard that the troubadour was very solid, and when I contacted Lyon and Healy they seemed to say it was common for this to happen. So I’m not really sure if this is a problem with this particular instrument because it wasn’t played very much by the current owner, or if it’s just something that will eventually happen with all Troubadours.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by cmc.

[Biagio]

Ditto Charles and Shane, absolutely.

Without getting into further techie details (and lord knows I like them), here’s my take for your question:

-Given that your daughter is an absolute beginner, unless both you and she are absolutely sure that she will progress in time to a concert pedal harp, do not waste time and money on a concert tension lever harp at this point. Invest rather in an excellent teacher and a good, new instrument.

-How they are strung (gut or nylon) does not mater too much at the learning stage: gut costs more though.

-I* can highly recommend a number from low to higher price ranges: Dusty Strings FHs or Ravennas; Thornahlens; Camacs; Sligo Harps Raven or Luchair; Musicmakers Voyageur or Cheyenne; any of the Blessleys.

-There are other excellent harps out there – those are just some of which
I know both harp and maker personally.

That gives you wide range in terms of cost but not, surprisingly, quality. The Musicmakers Cheyenne and Voyageur even available as kits and they are excellent just out of the box if you are handy with simple hand tools. They are often used as student rental harps. But I must “brag’ That I have mdified both with a spruce sound board and custom stings. In all modesty – WOW.

Best wishes,
Biagio

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Biagio.

[balfour-knight]

Gentlemen, these are wonderful posts! This does make me wonder, as I have seen a decline in quality from L&H, if they indeed have changed their design and construction on the Troubadour. The older ones generally have held up really well, except for maybe the levers, which can be updated.

I agree with Biagio about just selecting another harp for your daughter. I have seen consistent good quality in Camac, Dusty Strings, and Thormahlen. I also like his recommendation of Musicmakers and the possibility of doing it yourself with one of their wonderful kits! Their new Epic harp sounds really good on the sample videos, even though I have not played one personally.

Best wishes and harp hugs to all my friends here,
Balfour (and Carol Lynn)

[cmc]

Thank you so much to all who responded! I will definitely keep your recommendations in mind.

Best wishes,

CMC

[Biagio]

It seems obvious to many here but often not to begionners (no disrespect meant): with few exceptions (double strung, SA harps), the strings pull not only down but laterally and if one considers that a harp like the Troub has well over 1/2 ton of tension, sooner or later that will pull the neck over and open up the neck-pillar joint.

Alas, that is the nature of this beautiful instrument. A careful maker will take steps to mitigate this and other stress-related issues….some lovely harps are over 100 years old and still sound great. Many modern ones use reinforcing that is not visible to the buyer. But….

Back to my advice plus 4 for the new player

1) Do not buy a used harp unless you have an experienced person with you
2) Evaluate your needs both now and future
3) Stick to recognized makers for the first harp
4) Teacher first – THEN buy a harp (grin)

Haha, need it be said that I did none of the above???

Blessings to all,
Biagio

[Biagio]

Side note…Caswell did as Shane mentioned: an inlaid butterfly covered by a plate (for aesthetics). Because the butterfly + plate is extremely strong Chris used dowels just to align it and pocket hole screws to draw the joint together (plus come epoxy). Look, Ma, no clamps needed:-)

Aside from the SB, the NPJ and the harmonic curve can be reinforced with little effort or expense, and I’m pretty confident that all competent makers do so in one way or another. The early Troubadours though were made of laminates which is no prob after they reinforced it for lateral bend. Dunno about the more recent ones.

[Gregg Bailey]

I bought a used Troubadour V a few years ago and appreciate the fact that the neck and pillar are one piece. Why did L&H change this design to be 2 separate pieces in the VI? And, for that matter, why do most, if not all, of the other lever harp makers use the 2-piece design for the neck and pillar? It seems to me that a single-piece neck-pillar would have to be much stronger.

-Gregg

[charles-nix]

The answer for why most use 2-piece is that 1-piece can only be done when both the neck and column are made from laminate ply. And cutting out that large piece from a sheet of ply pretty much trashes the entire sheet.

Laminate columns also tend to warp, which is a worse problem than a joint separation. Solid wood columns are made with the grain vertical.

Necks are made with the grain horizontal, or glued and crossed if the harmonic curve is on the deep side. All pedal harp necks are laminated.

And no, a single piece is not necessarily stronger. A properly designed joint of two pieces can be stronger than the rest of the wood. Now, it is true that many, many lever builders don’t use anything like a “proper” joint, nor a proper glue for the purpose, but that is beside the point.

Proper joints for any medium tension or higher harp include splines, or reinforcing keys, or mortise and tenon, with epoxy or polyurethane glue. Regular woodworker’s glue is soft and creeps under time and tension. A butt joint with a couple of dowels is not a great joint for a picture frame, let alone a harp, yet many builders do exactly that, with woodworking glue. I can’t say how the Troub VI is constructed, however. Even properly designed joints get executed on a bad day, or have unusual environments, and occasionally fail, especially when thousands of them are built.

[Biagio]

If that is to be all one piece it will actually be made from laminations: typically a maple ply core with hardwood sides for aesthetics. Sometimes it is all ply which makes a pretty strong neck but the pillar will be vulnerable to bending; hence those that do this will also add some bracing such as a fore pillar or internal tension rod.

Most harp makers think it more visually pleasing to use 2 part construction as well a less wasteful. There are at least half a dozen ways to make that joint very strong instead of sawing out a one piece core from expensive ply – typically maple piano pin block. A sufficient large piece of pin block will cost in the neighborhood of $400+ USD (versus maybe $200 at most for hardwoods).

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