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Please help. Aziliz or Melusine Concert?

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Home Forums Harps and Accessories Please help. Aziliz or Melusine Concert?

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  • #197247
    Biagio
    Participant

    Just a couple of random notes….

    A lot of different things go into how a harp sounds besides the string design but to stick with that for now:

    Longer strings provide more sustain and greater overtones all else being equal.  Think about the harmonic curve and recall that pitch doubles every octave ( A4 – 440Hz; A5 880Hz and so on).  In a purely theoretical world the string length would double going  the other direction – A3 string twice the length of A4 e.g. Natch, that would make the harp impossibly tall so we make the lower strings heavier.

    Regarding seated height: I have an musician’s Adjustrite chair and it’s great – you can change the height  by up to 6 inches and the angle as well.  They also make an adjustable bench, and both fold.  Here’s one listed on Amazon:

     

    Biagio

    #197258
    kiwibelle
    Participant

    Hi Again , wow thanks so much for all your helpfulness !!

    I had to laugh at your comment ElETTARIA about NZ being a desert when it comes to harps.

    With your good idea I called the store yesterday that can get the Aoyama harps, like my teachers student harp. They had one to hire so I went and got it. So now it’s not so bad till I get my own. I realise I won’t be wanting to buy one of these though.

    you asked WIL WETON what I didnt like….I find it too bright in tone and as for looks I’m not keen and don’t like the three legs. If I’m to spend all this money I better be loving everything about it. I take on board what you said re the harmonics you get with the extra strings, good point.

    I didn’t  say “I hate” using a stool for the smaller harp Elettaria, I’d just don’t want that to be what I will always have to, unless I was to play standing up for some reason. Just personally it feels makeshift. I just happen to want my harp standing ready to go at anytime like a piece of beautiful furniture with no setting up required, like a piano is. … And I’m 5’6″

    I had a look into the 2nd hand Norris harp , thanks for that, unfortunately  with our exchange rate, shipping, import duty and gst it would end up costing me $13,000 . I’m not willing to fork over that much and can’t really afford to either.

    the Starfish harps look interesting for sure, you are giving me a lot of other options to consider I hadn’t heard of. Rather than the 2nd hand one I like the look and sound of the Mamore. It looks to a great size. I am concerned though re gut strings. I was told yesterday in the music store that gut doesn’t like our humid conditions here in NZ that they would be problematic and high maintainance, I don’t know enough to have an option on that. I’d just read several times nylon is best for beginners. If gut is less bright maybe it’s what I’d prefer….. So many desisions.

    #197259
    kiwibelle
    Participant

    Now that’s something I don’t quite get BIAGO this greater richer sound with more harmonic curve …. To my ears the Dusty has that sound but has very little of this curve compared to more classic style necks, like the troubadour or Egan for example.

    it seems you have seen and heard many many harps to make a comparison between these tones. I’m not sure how to correctly describe the sound I love but it sounds more like a piano and less like a guitar, certainly not a ukulele, lol !!

    I like a clear tone, not overly bright,not a midi sound, with a rich resonat bass. Hmm nah I’m not fussy. My husband is a musician plays piano/ keyboard but knows less that I do re harps.

    p.s. I looked up the chair on Amazon and it was going to cost be $675 to get it sent here!!!! Yikes 😯

    #197261
    kiwibelle
    Participant

    This is my very favourite YouTube clip. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve listened to it, I’m quite addicted, lol.

    Her playing is Amazing. I’m sure the sound of any harp comes down to who’s playing it as much as anything else.

    #197262
    kiwibelle
    Participant

    … And this is the clip of the AZILIZ that I’ve thrashed. , yes I know I will never pay like that but just giving you an idea of what blows my particular mind 😊

    #197263
    Elettaria
    Member

    Congratulations on your new hire harp!  How are you getting on with it?  Are you enjoying the extra range and not having to faff around with a box?  It’s not massively to my taste visually either, and I know what you mean about the legs, but it’s meant to be a fairly solid student harp, and sounds a lot better than your previous one.  I hope you have great fun with it and learn more about what you like and need as a harpist.

    Starfish are in the Highlands of Scotland, where it’s fairly humid, and they do fine with gut.  I’m vegan and don’t want a gut-strung harp, so I’ve been asking a lot of the UK luthiers (well, mainly Norris, Starfish and Teifi) about whether they can string a harp in fluorocarbon, and the answer is yes.  Mark Norris has done quite a few and offers three different gauges of both gut and fluorocarbon, if you want to email him for opinions, and both Starfish and Teifi have strung a few harps with fluorocarbon, no idea about the gauge.  If you happen to prefer fluorocarbon, that is.  It certainly breaks less, though whether or not you prefer the tone and feel is personal.  Perhaps other harpists in NZ can report on how well gut holds out over there?  I haven’t tried the Mamore, I was focusing intently on the Glencoe and Glenelle, but it’s meant to be a lovely harp, it has the extra strings at the bottom which I personally like, and it looks like it’s in the height range you prefer. Bear in mind that Starfish have a year’s wait, though if you have a good rental harp that’s less painful.  That was why I was mentioning second hand harps, although there it’s a risk in terms of quality.  I’d hate having to choose a harp without being able to try one first, you really have my sympathies on that.

    Yep, I had a feeling the second hand Norris would come out over budget.  Those brass levers add a lot to the weight and the cost.  Some people love them, some people report that they’re a bit clicky.  I’ll be going for the Alulite ones myself, which were recently invented by a chap at Teifi.  Apart from that, Camac levers are generally the rule in the UK.

    So what sort of things do you play?  I’ve been getting very into Andres, am furiously flipping levers for various arrangements of Bach, and have a nice easier book of medieval music for when I’m feeling lazy, amongst other things.  I keep meaning to print out my arrangements of some Dowland songs and learn them properly, but there’s something about the combination of singing and flipping levers which I get stuck on.

    #197303
    wil-weten
    Participant

    Congrats with your ‘new’ hired Aoyama harp. This offers you the chance to find out what you really like and don’t like in a harp.

    You say you don’t like the bright sound of the Aoyama harp. This is a nylon strung harp. I think it is very important for you to know that nylon strung harps sound fairly bright. Some kinds of wood can give a nylon strung harp a bit mellower tone., walnut giving the warmest tone, as as I know, and cherry also helps to get a bit warmer tone).

    I don’t think nylon is the way to go for adult starters on the harp. I really see no point.

    As to the very moist atmosphere where you live, and the warning of your local shop that gut strings may not be a good choice for your circumstances, I think you really need to research carbon strings. They are even less susceptible to moist than nylon, and they keep their lively tone a lot longer than nylon does. Their sound is to my ears a bit in between nylon and gut. There’s carbon strings and carbon strings. Carbon strings can be bought in different tensions and from different manufacturers. A lot of Camac harps can be bought with carbon strings. You do need to find out what their tension is. Several models have a rather light, others a rather a firm, tension.  I’ve got several carbon strings (of Savarez Alliance) between my gut strings and the wire strings on my small 34 string harp to make the transition in sound beween gut and wire more gradual. I must say that gut sounds richer to my ears than carbon, but gut needs a certain minimum length to sound good, and on my compact harp the lower strings are just to short to sound really good with gut. So I use carbon strings there: they sound good, cost a lot less than gut and I never had one that broke, the only disadvantage is that it takes much longer for it to hold its tone, one keeps tuning and tuning and tuning…. Yet, I think it’s worth while.

    I would not use carbon for the upper end of the strings, as it sounds to bright in my ears. I tried nylon at the upper end (much cheaper than gut), but they sound too shallow in my ears. This may has to do with the harp being built rather heavy, they might sound great on a harp especially built for nylon; I heard nylon sound much better on lightly built harps).

    I already said it too many times, but one really needs to go to a harp shop and try the harps oneself. The sounds  you like so much on youtube may have more to do with the acoustics of the room and/or the used audio equipment then of the harp itself…

    #197304
    wil-weten
    Participant

    I found a harp dealer in NZ that carries Dusty harps. As you more or less seem to be looking for a nicely priced decent quality harp, you may like to have a look at the Dusty Ravenna 34 strings at: https://secure.zeald.com/kbbmusic/results.html?q=dusty At the moment it costs: <span id=”product_price_DUSRAV34FL” style=”color: #4d4d4d; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10.88px;”>NZ $4,680.00</span><span style=”color: #4d4d4d; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10.88px;”> </span><span class=”gst” style=”color: #4d4d4d; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10.88px;”>incl GST.</span>

    More about this model on: http://manufacturing.dustystrings.com/harps/models/ravenna-34/

    It’s a nylon strung harp with intermediate tension.

    This shop also carries more expensive Dusty harps. Even the FH36S…
    <h4 style=”font-family: Verdana; color: #070103; line-height: 1.5em; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 1.1em; margin: 0px 0px 12px; padding: 0px;”></h4>
    While saving for the harp of your dreams, you could have several years of joy with this real nice harp. And it is a very populair harp to buy second hand. So, you may end up a lot cheaper by buying this harp and selling it in a few years, than hiring a harp from a shop that only carries a harp line you are not fond of.

    Edit: I found that Harps & Harps in Australia also sells Dusty harps (as well a Camacs, so you could easily compare them).

    #197306
    Elettaria
    Member

    Here’s what I know about fluorocarbon.  It’s also called carbon, carbon fibre, KF, Savarez, or Alliance, so if you see any of those terms, they mean the same type of string.  They do not necessarily mean the same tension or gauge of string, however.  The Camac Hermine has notoriously low string tension, which in my experience was worse on the bottom two fluorocarbon strings (not sure if that’s a problem with the model in general or just that harp, it’s a relatively cheap student model which is apparently a bit patchy in terms of quality).  The strings break a lot less often, are cheaper than gut, and take a long time for the tuning to settle down when you replace a string.  A gut strung harp should accept fluorocarbon strings, although you realistically want the luthier to be organising it so that the best strings for the harp are put on.  A nylon strung harp probably won’t, from what luthiers in this forum have said, as fluorocarbon is higher tension than nylon, just as you shouldn’t put gut strings on a harp designed for nylon.  As far as I can tell, your choices with fluorocarbon are to buy a harp that is already produced with fluorocarbon strings, or to go to a smallish luthier who ordinarily uses gut but is happy to use fluorocarbon, and has some experience of doing it.  Big harp companies such as Dusty Strings are less likely to do this sort of custom order, but it is worth asking if you want one of their harps.  Buying a harp designed for another stringing material and restringing it yourself is not the best option, especially when you’re inexperienced.  At best, it could sound or feel poor, and at worst, putting too much tension on the soundboard could make it explode!

    Camac seems to like low tension on its fluorocarbon harps, in general.  It’s lower than most lever harps out there, from what I understand, and less popular as an option.  They make the Isolde with a choice of medium or low tension, and it’s a bigger harp, so that sounds like one that may suit you, although you should probably postpone deciding which tension you prefer until you’ve had longer with your Aoyama (the Kerry, right?).  It’s a popular student harp, so people should be able to relate to it when discussing their models.

    Mark Norris is the only person I’ve found talking about using three different gauges of fluorocarbon, and I reckon he’s worth chatting to, even if you can’t afford one of his harps.  (I have no idea yet which gauge I’ll go for – that’s one of the good things about his 18 month waiting list, it gives me the chance to improve as a harpist and figure out what I need.)  When I was at the festival and trying his harps, he mentioned that he’s started putting fluorocarbon in the top octave of his gut-strung harps as standard, as that’s where you get the most string breakages.  It sounded just as good as gut, and he said the harpists trying out the harps didn’t realise he’d done it.  So it’s not necessarily the case that fluorocarbon is going to sound too bright in the top octave.  You do need a luthier who is experienced enough with fluorocarbon to do a good job with it, and more to the point, a harp which is good enough that it will generally sound good.

    In terms of sound, I find nylon tends to be too bright for me as well, although it’s hard to tell as I still haven’t tried every harp at the festival, and recordings online vary too much to be all that useful.  I do like the sound of fluorocarbon, it can be very mellow.

    Teifi seem to have a much shorter waiting list, by the way, and their 36 string Eos is in your height range, but it’s also extremely heavy at 15kg, and fairly pricey too.

    Another thing to consider, as you get more experienced, is what sort of levers you like.

    #197308
    wil-weten
    Participant

    @ Elettaria, I am sorry, but there is real difference in the quality of carbon strings. Take for example Savarez Alliance: their lower strings have a different structure from  their higher strings and from  strings of other carbon string manufacturers. Besides, my carbon strings keep their colour relatively well, I heard of other carbon strings of which the colours tend to disappear in time.

    I don’t know what you mean by the Hermine having notoriously low tension. As far as I know, the Hermine has a normal light tension. The Hermine harp is pretty popular, at least in Europe… I don’t recognize your ‘<span style=”font-family: ‘Open Sans’, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>apparently a bit patchy in terms of quality’ at all…. </span>Perhaps your hired harp was not properly taken care of and (partly?) strung with non-original carbon strings?

     

    You also wrote: ‘<span style=”font-family: ‘Open Sans’, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>A nylon strung harp probably won’t, from what luthiers in this forum have said, as fluorocarbon is higher tension than nylon’. </span>

    I am sorry again, as Biagio, who is really knowledgeable on the technical aspects of harps and harp strings, already explained in this thread why one can’t say that one type of string has more tension of itself than another type of string.

    As to changing one type of string for another: you may end up to have to install several other levers. Just think of the difference between  the both carbon strung Camac Isoldes (one with folk tension, one with classic tension): when going from one type of string to another, one would need to change the levers as well (which is rather pricey….).

    By the way, every professional luthier can calculate which strings of a certain type would sound best on a certain harp.

    You write: ‘<span style=”font-family: ‘Open Sans’, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>They make the Isolde with a choice of medium or low tension’ </span>

    I think there may be some difference in thinking on what low tension or medium string tension is. This is quite understandable, as the experience of ‘low’ and ‘medium’  is very subjective. To be able to compare string tension on harps, one should use the kind of technical aspects, Biagio already mentioned. The point is, some people, who are used to pedal harp tension,  call medium tension on lever harps low tension. There is a large difference between the real low tension of Rees harpsicles and the Noteworthy County Kerry harps and the kind of low tension on some, but in no way, all Camac (carbon strung) harps.

    Finally, another aspect to keep in mind: shipping one single harp is very expensive. When ordering a harp from an importer who imports several harps at a time, it may be cheaper to order from such an importer than importing oneself. And then, there’s of course the import taxes and the VAT.

     

     

     

     

    #197309
    Biagio
    Participant

    Your choice of strings is rather subjective and depends on a number of things, unless you intend to play a high tension concert pedal harp. However, with that and wire harps as exceptions,  let us just consider some pluses and minuses:

    -You can use Tynex nylon, fluorocarbon or gut interchangeably provided that you use appropriate diameters. Tension increases with material density with FC the highest and Tynex the lowest density.  Therefore, use a smaller gauge of gut and FC than nylon. Consult a string maker on this or do the math.

    Generally speaking, makers who use gut as their standard also make higher tension harps than those who use nylon.  This is just based on their target market niche, it has nothing to do with inherent physics. Gut seems to predominate in Europe, Tynex nylon in the US.

    Nylon costs less than the other two.

    Gut is quite hydroscopic so if you live in a humid environment with frequent climate changes you may prefer FC which is not, but sounds fairly close to gut.  Nylon is also hydroscopic but not nearly as much as gut.

    Tone depends physically on hardness, with nylon the hardest, gut the least.  That also affects sustain and overtones but to a lesser degree.

    There are a number of FC and related types.  Savarez goes to multi-filament at 1.01mm diameter, “Silkgut and “Nylgut” at others or are multi-filament throughout.

    FC stretches much more than either of the others and is more elastic so, it takes longer to maintain pitch when new and feels less tense once at pitch and plucked, even when it is at the same static tension as the others.  Some people find that annoying; and even physically  harmful if they play with great force (as on a concert harp).

    No offense, Wil, but I completely disagree about that “first harp” being gut strung.  One should take the above into account; if one is just beginning it may be wiser to use nylon at first.  One’s technique also plays a large part in how a string material sounds.

    About that “harmonic curve” remark: well I did say “all else being equal.”  Dusty uses bronze core nylon wound in the bass which sounds very different from steel core bronze wound or a very long gut string (for example).  The point is that a longer string produces clearer overtones than a shorter one, since the nodes are further apart.

    Best wishes to all,

    Biagio

    #197311
    wil-weten
    Participant

    Hi Biagio, you wrote: ‘<span style=”font-family: ‘Open Sans’, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>No offense, Wil, but I completely disagree about that “first harp” being gut strung'</span>

    But I wrote: ‘<span style=”font-family: ‘Open Sans’, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;”>I don’t think nylon is the way to go for adult starters on the harp. I really see no point.’ So, I did not advise the first harp to be gut strung. I just don’t believe that nylon would be the obvious choice for an adult beginner. Perhaps nylon, carbon or (folk) gut or even pedal gut would be a good idea, but IMHO, it all depends on one’s preferences and the strenght of ones (adult!) fingers. In the case of children or people with muscle problems or over flexible joints , I think nylon or carbon strings with rather low tension, may usually be wiser, but here we are talking about an adult who did not mention certain problems with her hands.</span>

    As for the rest, I agree with you (as usual  🙂 .

     

    #197313
    Biagio
    Participant

    I follow your logic Wil and don’t want to start an argument; but I think you missed my point about relative tension.  To repeat in clearer terms:  There is is absolutely no reason that a nylon strung harp need be at lower tension than a gut strung harp.  If the maker chooses a high tension design he can string it with whatever he chooses – nylon if that is what the customer wants, gut if they want gut.  The strings will simply differ in diameter, one material to another.

    For example: my favorite harp is nylon strung and at the same tension as a gut strung Troubadour – on average 35lbs./16kg per string.

    Diameter dictates tension for a given material.  The Taylor formula, which we all use, states that:

    Tension = Mass(2xLengthxFrequency)squared.

    Increasing mass increases tension, holding length and frequency constant.  Therefore, use a larger diameter of nylon than gut to maintain constant tension. Let’s not do the algebra and be happy with one example – A-220Hz at a vibrating length of 71.12cm:

    Nylon 1.54mm tension 19.4kg

    Gut 1.38mm tension 19.4kg

    As to the relative hand strength – local harpers Harper Tasche, Phil Boulding and indeed your humble servant all have very powerful hands – but we all play nylon strung harps.  That is all about technique.

     

    Whew!

    Biagio

    #197314
    wil-weten
    Participant

    Hi Biagio, I completely agree with you… But to place my earlier remark in context: The OP thought that for beginners nylon strings were the way to go.  I simply tried to explain that adult beginners have much more options than limiting theirselves to nylon.

    #197315
    Biagio
    Participant

    I am glad that we agree Wil!  I think we also agree that it is wise to be wary of flat out blanket opinions LOL; ask a knowledgeable teacher for preference, or the folks here.

    Two of my least favorite (or most favorite if I am in an argumentative mood) blanket statements are:

    “You must use pedal harp notation (first octave X, second octave X, etc.) when discussing strings.”  Fine if a pedal harp is all you play, but many of us don’t.  Use scientific notation if you want to be understood by anyone else.

    “You will break your harp if you replace nylon with gut.”  Ha ha we just covered this one:-)

    Biagio

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