Gut strings: high maintenance vs nylon (and fluorocarbon)?

[wil-weten]

@ balfour-knight, I do have a few years of experience with Savarez Alliance carbon strings, though on a very small scale.
A few years ago, I wanted to have a smooth transition between the wire strings and the gut strings on my small 34 string harp with pedal gut string tension.
after consulting a reputable harp repairer I use to order my strings from, who gave me great advice (and sold me the right diameters of carbon strings, as it is obvious that one cannot use the same diameters for different materials! I do know that there are some spreadsheets to calculate the right kind of diameters, but I simply prefer the insights of this harp repairer).

I changed C-E below middle C from wire to carbon strings. I love them. They give a nice transition between wire and gut. As it is only a small harp, the lowest gut strings sound rather dull, as they are relatively thick for their length. So, after consulting the same reputable harp repairer about the right dimensions of the strings, I changed a few gut strings into carbon strings. I am glad I did. Now they sound less muddled and more clear. And besides, carbon is a lot cheaper than gut. Beware though that changing strings to a different diameter could mean that one needs to regulate the levers.

Would I use carbon gut on this very small harp also from, let us say middle C and higher? No, certainly not. I love the warmth and richness of tone of gut. Carbon strings are not warm at all, but to my ears can be a real solution for the lower strings where gut won’t sound good on a really small lever harp. Some carbon strung harps sound great, but these harps are especially built for carbon. I would not dream of restringing an orginally gut strung harp into a carbon strung harp.

Edit: just to make sure: I’ve got a larger lever harp too which is specifically designated for pedal harp gut and it has nice long lower strings on which pedal gut sounds fine (warm and rich). So, I won’t change these lower gut strings into another kind of string until I know enough of Aquila or Camac nylgut to want to have a small try when I need to put new strings on the lowest gut strings on this harp.

[Alyson Webber]

How do we start brawls of lever/pedal when it is a discussion of STRINGS? No matter how harps are set to pitch – peg only, levers, pedal mechanism…The thing they all have in common is they all use STRINGS and those strings all apply the same rules of physics on the soundboard and neck.

Biagio, you need to re-set your sensitivity meter for “digs” at non-pedal harps. I saw no disparaging comments in this thread. All I see is comparison of different lever harp models, comparison of string sound and warnings about high string tension.

[carl-swanson]

Biagio- I don’t know if your remarks about pedal versus non-pedal were directed at me. Nothing I said had anything to do with one type of instrument or the other. The point I was making is that Carbon fiber strings are higher tension. The average harpist, and that means 99.9% of the harp community, is going to take on faith what the label on the string envelop says. They are not going to do any kind of math or calculation to figure out what the have to do to change from one type of string to another. Trust me, they are not. Most of them don’t even grasp the fact that the string diameters are graduated, and that if you have to replace a first octave A and you don’t have one, then the best substitution is first octave G or B. I can’t tell you how many times over the years I have found a second octave string in the first octave, because these people think that a second octave A is the best substitution for a first octave A. Many 19th century instruments are being ruined because people are putting modern strings on an instrument that, even when new, was not built for that kind of tension. But to nearly all harpists, a C string is a C string, is a C string. So I stick to my initial comment. The lowest tension strings are nylon. Gut are higher tension than that and carbon fiber, (as labeled) are much higher tension than gut.

[drkatt]

Wow, so many replies! Thanks to everyone for the advice. It sounds like maybe the maintenance issues of gut strings aren’t as bad as I was initially fearing. Since I am just a hobbyist, my main concern is that I will be able to use my limited time actually playing the harp and not just fiddling with the strings.

I do suspect it’s the sound of gut strings that I am liking so much about the Boulevard, because I also like the sounds of other harps with gut strings, but for now I have a limited budget of up to 3k so I am mostly looking at harps within that range. I might consider the L&H Ogden if I can find one locally where I’m moving so I wouldn’t have to pay extra for shipping. I have also wondered also about getting a Ravenna with lever gut strings. I haven’t found that many sound clips of the latter though; just one youtube clip with a person playing a smaller gut-strung Ravenna, although it sounded nice enough. I hope I will be able to try several and compare but there is only one large music store in the area I’m moving to that stocks more than one make of harp, so I want to have multiple options in mind before going there. They do appear to have Dusty Strings though, so optimally I can compare at least the Ravenna and Boulevard. In any case, this advice gives me a good start. Thanks so much. 🙂

[balfour-knight]

Hi all!

I’m glad to hear that we helped drkatt. It was indeed a stimulating discussion! I guess that is what Harp Column is all about! Welcome, drkatt!

Best wishes,
Balfour

[Biagio]

Carl, I am sorry if my remarks seemed directed at you and apologize in general if they seemed at all offensive to anyone. We’re on the same page here. People can ruin a good harp by throwing on strings for which the harp is not designed – or for that matter those of original design if the instrument is rather old. That does concern me and sometimes I get a little irritated by the very point you make – that most harpists do not really understand these issues and are forced to rely on the string label.

Guess I got carried away there – the question came up during a retreat. Specifically, the confusion that often exists over how strings are named. It seems like such a deep murky mystery to many and frankly I think that harp makers are partly to blame for that:-)

On the other hand, while they may not want to crunch through the math, it might be useful to know that if a specific string breaks they can substitute a spare for an adjacent one until a new string can be ordered; and that this will not break the instrument:-)

Biagio

[Biagio]

Balfour, here are a few little factoids about those fluorocarbon strings, as you asked – thank you so much for your confidence! Some may already know about this – if so pardon the mini-lecture:-)

Some years ago deep sea fishers started to demand a line that would sink, be less prone to stretching and breaking than nylon, and be somewhat heavier for the same gauge (so that it would not take up as much space on the reel). The answer, from Japan, was FC. It quickly started being used on tennis rackets as well.

Now here is where it gets interesting if you are a harpist. Some enterprising lever harp makers realized that here was the answer to a nagging question: how to avoid the expense and humidity problems of gut in certain parts of the range. Savarez of France and Acquila of Italy quickly came to the same conclusion.

Some still prefer the fishing line to those more musically refined by Savarez and Acquila – mainly because larger than 1.01mm the Savarez and Acquila go to multi-strand. The tone is somewhat “mellower” with the monofilament in those maker’s opinions. As Carl noted, both types are somewhat denser than gut, and in my opinion while they are not as bright as nylon they are not as “mellow” as gut either. But…if you enjoy sometimes playing with the nails they are less likely to fray than gut. Since I like brass strungs AND nylon/gut I have FC rather than gut so I can use either nails or pads.

Here’s the good news: they cost somewhat less than gut and if the harp has been specifically designed with FC in mind – such as some Fishers and Sligos – sound wonderful and come in finer gradations than Tynex nylon. Which means that those of us who don’t particularly like fat wound nylon over nylon have another choice.

Recall that we are still talking about lever harps: smaller and (usually) at lighter tension than pedal instruments. It might be interesting to try one or two FC strings on that Ravenna 34 that you love just for kicks and giggles. Dusty will not carry Savarez or Acquila unfortunately, but since they do give the specs for gut it would be no big trick to figure out the appropriate FC substitution.

Cheers,
Biagio

[janet-king]

I don’t really know the nuances of strings et al. But if you are shopping for a folk harp, get thee to the Somerset Folk Harp Festival if you can. It’s in New Jersey at the end of July. I agree with the sentiment expressed above: it’s the individual harp that matters most. You know how one mother and one father repeat the same model over and over, yet get wildly different kids? Similar thing. (Well, maybe that’s an exaggeration…). Play the harp you’re gonna buy. At Somerset, you can walk around the showroom and play harp after harp from many different harpmakers — and meet them too! Doesn’t that sound amazing?? Go!!

And while you’re at it, be sure to check out my current favorite harpmaker, Marini Made Harps. I own his “UltraLite” model: a sound that is near perfection to me (& I’ve been harping for over 40 years), a remarkably lightweight harp, and very reasonable prices.
Janet

[balfour-knight]

The Southeastern Harp Weekend is happening in Asheville this October, if you want to try many different harps by different makers. DRkatt, I don’t know what area of the country (USA) you will be moving to, but this conference is in Asheville, North Carolina.

Thanks, Biagio and Wil for all the wonderful information. I just played a Camac lever harp with carbon strings, so it is good to know something about them. These are the original strings put on by Camac, and felt rather coarse to my fingers compared to gut and nylon. But I guess one could get used to it. I had to get used to the nylon over nylon on the Ravenna–I got friction noise when I slid up or down on them when placing, so I adjusted my technique to accommodate them.

Thanks to everyone for your posts!
Balfour

[DianaRowan]

Interesting thread! I’m a huge devotee of fluorocarbon strings and have them on both my Cithara Nova 34 string harps plus my David Kortier electric harp (except the bottom octave is wire on the latter.)

I find the tone gorgeous, dynamic range wide, and love that fluorocarbon hardly reacts to temperature or humidity. I’ve flown my harps across the world multiple times to find them less than a quarter tone out of tune upon arrival. Perhaps something that makes fluorocarbon better for me is I set low tension. Pedal harp tension could be another matter altogether, and I have no experience with that regarding fluorocarbon strings.

Also, to obliquely refer to an earlier comment, I play Salzedo technique on my hybrid Renaissance/Paraguayan and find it works great 😉

[Biagio]

Fascinating comments Diana, thank you. One other thing that strikes me about the Cithara Nova, and that is it’s high arch. This allows those long strings a great deal of resonance and power that would otherwise have to be approached with a different string – perhaps silver wound artificial silk – and perhaps also somewhat higher tension. I found that to be true on my Selchie model – same general high head approach but perhaps 6 inches shorter in the bass.

I suppose that is one reason I really love lever instruments – there are so many ways to approach a problem and so many innovative makers out there trying different things!

Biagio

[mae-mcallister]

Mae’s two pence:

– Gut is more expensive and breaks more often but damn it sounds sooooooo so so good! I have nylon and KF on my little travel harp for durability and convenience, but I would not change the gut on my big one for anything. I only get about two broken strings a month, 90% of which are the top three gut strings (i.e. naughty buggers but fairly cheap and small to replace). Also, most faff is due to having to tune, not replace strings. Gut holds tune fairly well. KF takes ages to settle, and then holds good tune. Nylon tends to stretch a bit. In conclusion, guuuuuuuuuut! Gut is soothing balm to your ears.

– KF is Not Evil. Equally, if you don’t know what you’re doing, don’t mess with the string design. I think its unhelpful and misleading to say “never use KF strings” but if you piss around with strings of a different material on your harp just according to what note it says on the label without checking with someone who does know what they’re doing, you need a good hard slap and I’m happy to oblige. Ownership and responsibility for an instrument goes beyond just playing it.

– I liked the Boulevard, and don’t care for the Ravennas. I know because I’ve played both. Crushes are crushes, but there’s no substitute for playing a harp for real and falling hard in love.

Maybe that was three pence. What’s the going rate for opinions on the internet these days?

[Biagio]

Pence well invested Mae. This relates to something I alluded to earlier. To whit, when a harp maker sits down to an entirely new design, he or she will do so with a particular “signature sound” in mind and design the strings and the rest of the harp around that. After physical parameters have been determined- weight, size, cost – they spend probably 80% of the actual time on those strings!

I know very few makers (and very few models by them) that do not build a prototype first and then tweak it. Once in a while something will come straight off the drawing board through the shop and when finished the maker will say, “That’s it.” But not often, and the first things tweaked are the strings.

Biagio

[balfour-knight]

Okay, Mae, you have me intrigued! Does your Dusty FH36 have GUT strings on it? They would surely be “lever gut” unless Dusty built the harp especially to have “pedal gut” strings on it. Also, have you ever played a Ravenna 34 which had lever gut strings on it? Alas, the Atlanta Harp Center was not well-stocked with Dusty harps when I was just there. I was so disappointed, because I wanted to play a Boulevard and judge for myself, after hearing so much about them.

Nag, nag–are we ever going to get to hear/see you play your new double?!!!!! I am so bad, but you are really keeping us in suspense, ha, ha! I am on the road doing a short “concert tour” right now, but found a computer available at the Inn we are staying in.

Best regards to all of you,
Balfour (and Carol Lynn)

[mae-mcallister]

Yes, it does. Over the pond, most harps are gut-strung because a) gut is awesome and b) gut strings are mostly manufactured in the UK, nylon ones mostly in the USA. Even though the FH is an American harp, Dusty Strings know their audience and bring gut-strung ones to sell here. It is at lever gut tension, which suits me and the music I like playing just fine.

In conclusion, gut is epic.

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