Beginner with New Harp (Problems)

[Fiona Kidd]

Hello everyone. I am a 65 year old beginner Harpist although I’ve played piano for 60 years. I decided I wanted to learn the Harp so bought a 36 string harp 7 weeks ago.

I will be honest here and say it is a Gear4Music 36 string harp (the black one) which cost £850. The harp I really wanted was the Dusty Strings Ravenna 34 but the price went up by £1000 to £3000 so it was out of my price range.

It’s a sweet sounding harp but I have encountered a problem. It keeps going out of tune, even when I’m tuning one string, I take the tuning key off and it immediately shows flat. It’s as if the pins are slipping. The other night E6 string broke. I hadn’t even touched it. Following online instructions I replaced the string successfully.

I know it can take the strings a long time to settle but I’m getting frustrated with it now. I seem to be spending more time tuning it than actually playing it.

One thing that is interesting is it is levered until the last 6 strings. I would think levers on the last 6 strings would guarantee they’d break and talking of levers, these, although they do work are unbelievably stiff. Good job the music I’ve got doesn’t involve lever changes yet.

The bass to 4th octave strings sound good and are not too hard on the fingers. However, the last octave, the tension is really high. I searched online for reviews of this harp and there are not many but it is something others have said too. I am wondering if I should change out all the strings for better quality ones and possibly the levers too?

At the moment I am on the verge of sending the harp back to G4M.

Incidentally, Clive Morley Harps is not too far from where I live and I would have preferred one of their harps but even their second-hand harps are very expensive.

Sorry about the long post but hope someone can give me advice.

[Biagio]

“Gear4music” is not the makers name and while I cannot tell from the 36 picture who actually made it I can say with some certainty that the smaller ones are made in Pakistan. The levers on the 36 certainly look like those on other “Paki harps.” These are notoriously poorly made and it has been a common practice lately to market them through a dealer.

Sorry to give you this bad news. You might possibly struggle with the thing by reducing the tension with smaller diameter strings but frankly I would send the thing back for a refund – if you can get it,. Depends on the warranty.

Honestly, I think that the Dusty Ravenna 34 is the best on the market in terms of price:performance so I guess no help there. A smaller harp might suit your budget better, such as the Ravenna 26. That would be perfectly fine for learning harp technique. It will take some time to learn that anyway, so you might consider finding a harp teacher who would rent a harp to you – and also get you started learning good technique.

Good luck!
Biagio

[Fiona Kidd]

Thank you Biaggio. Believe me, I am on the verge of sending it back. I’m going to phone them on Monday and see what they have to say. You are correct. It is made in Pakistan. It did come with a 3 year warranty.

There are a couple of harpists on YouTube that have these harps (as well as other, better makes) and they don’t seem to have any problems with them. I think I might have got a bad one.

I do have a second harp. It’s a 22 string Pakistani made harp I bought some 15 years ago from eBay. It cost me £80 at the time so was cheap for someone who’d never touched a harp before, let alone play one. The soundboard on it is cracked and it also has cracks in the frame so I don’t play it. Ironically, despite this, the strings stay in tune. The levers on that definitely don’t work. I did take lessons for about 3 months then but the teacher gave up so she could play at more weddings and functions. The nearest teacher to me now is over 100 miles away in London, hence I’m learning online. I like Anne Crosby Gaudet and have bought some of her beginner music. I am making sure I use the correct technique. I don’t think I’ll be playing at any weddings, just for my own enjoyment and that of family and friends (hopefully).

The little harp really whetted my interest and I visited Clive Morley harps years ago and had the pleasure of trying a Ravenna 34. I fell in love with it but circumstances took a downturn when there was serious illness in my family and my husband passed away.

Clive Morley Harps is about 20 miles from where I live and they do have a secondhand Dusty Strings Ravenna 34 they’ve just got in but…and here’s the but…it is an ex-rental from a school and somehow it got water damaged. The lower part of the soundboard has warped so they are advising anyone interested in buying it to come and see it first. The price is £1200. I may enquire about it next week depending on what G4M have to say and maybe go and see it. At the very least it will be a day out for my adult son (who is also musical) and me and give me the chance to try some good quality harps.

As for G4M, I bought my digital baby grand piano from them 6 years ago and was delighted with it and still am. However, reading recent reviews on Trustpilot, it would seem their standards have slipped and a lot of people are having problems with instruments and accessories they’ve bought and they’re saying customer service is poor.

We shall see on Monday.

[Biagio]

I hope that things work out for you Fiona. I cannot speak to the Ravenna at Morley of course but here are a few observations:

The Ravennas have a high quality Finnish ply sound board so the water damage would concern me, if any of the plies have separated.

Speaking as an individual (retired) harp maker I can say that just the strings levers and hardware alone for a 34-36 cost about $800-$1000 US retail; less for a full time professional of course. The moral here is that if anyone offers one for less there is probably something wrong with it.

Please do consider my suggestion about the Ravenna 26, therefore.

Best wishes,
Biagio

[Fiona Kidd]

I hope so too, Biagio. As I said, I will see what G4M has to say on Monday.

I know if I went for a 26 string, I would not be happy with it. I like the bass strings. I will see if my harp holds the tune better over the weekend. The E6 I put on I expect to still be stretching. At least I now know how to replace a string. I think I made a good job of it and was quite pleased with myself. I followed Sylvia Wood’s YouTube instructions.

I also play guitar (not very well) and have restrung both my guitars. I always used good quality strings but the last ones I put on – D’Arrios (not sure of the spelling) took a long time to settle. For the guitar I preferred Black Diamond but couldn’t get them. I don’t play the guitar now. I took lessons for a couple of years but could never hold down a bar chord and I have very small hands. My guitar teacher was retiring so I gave up lessons.

Over the past few years I’ve been concentrating on my piano and passed Grade 7 with Distinction last year. I’m doing Grade 8 in the spring then looking to do my Diploma after that, proving you’re never too old. I have a wonderful piano teacher.

I do wish I’d thought about learning the harp when I was younger as I love the resonance of the harp and even though I’m only a beginner I am enjoying learning.

If I could get my harp to stay in tune better, I would really enjoy it because it does have a really sweet sound and for a cheap harp, an amazing resonance. Just a shame it seems to have been poorly made.

I’ll let you know what G4M has to say once I’ve spoken to them on Monday.

[wil-weten]

I would, without any hesitation, return the Gear for Music harp and go for a perhaps second hand Dusty Ravenna as its sound is richer and more balanced and the harp is built well and, at least in theory, has fully functional levers. As Clive Morley is a trusted and respected harp shop, the fact that they say the second hand harp has’slight damage’ would’nt make me too nervous, and besides, you get the chance of inspecting it as the shop is not too far from where you live. Ask them if the damage is only cosmetical or perhaps also structural. Perhaps some of the levers may need new blades if they are used a lot, but you could fix that later on. Of course, you’d be willing to ask the shop about the condition of the levers.
You say the Dusty costs a lot more than before, could it be that before you saw a Dusty with Loveland levers and now one with Camac levers? Camac levers are great, but Loveland levers function adequately too and are significantly cheaper.

[Fiona Kidd]

Hello Wil-Weten and thank you for your reply. The price of the Ravenna 34 was £2,200 at the beginning of this year. In June the price had gone up to £3,300. I noticed when I looked at Clive Morley Harps yesterday the price had gone down to £3,000 but still way out of my price range.

The damaged Ravenna is in my price range but it depends on how badly damaged it is. Morley Harps have a very good reputation so I can’t see them selling something that’s unplayable.

I know you pay for what you get and buy cheap, buy dear but the G4M harp was actually an early Christmas present from my lovely son.

I watched a few reviews of this harp on YouTube. Caroline Stapleton has one identical to mine and I have spoken to her about the problems I’ve been having. She advised to let the strings settle for a few weeks and if that didn’t work, return it. I think after 7 weeks the strings should have settled by now and the fact the E6 broke when I wasn’t even playing that string shows something isn’t quite right.

Another thing I’ve noticed this past week is the harp has developed a rocking motion when on a flat floor, suggesting the frame itself is warping.

Some of the strings hold their tune well, others don’t so I do think the pins are slipping. The thing that intrigues me is when I put the tuning key on the pin and take the string up to pitch, as soon as I take the key off – and I’ve made a point of taking the key off without disturbing the pin, the pitch immediately goes flat and in some cases sharp. I have two tuners – a Snark and a Korg. Both register the same pitch.

Looks like I’m going to have a busy day on Monday. Piano lesson and two phone calls to make.

Wish me luck.

[Fiona Kidd]

Just a quick add on to my previous post. Just had another look at the damaged Ravenna. If you expand the pics, the soundboard does look very warped when looked at from a certain angle. Not sure if I’m allowed to put a link on so will understand if the moderators remove this post.

https://www.morleyharps.co.uk/second-hand-ravenna-34-2020-with-slight-damage-c2x38617949

[Biagio]

I looked at the harp Fiona on Morley’s website and also read their description. I have some serious concerns which you might discuss with them. As Wil Weten said, that is a well regarded, reputable shop so I would trust what they tell you. My concerns are:

-The harp is listed as being “for repair or spare parts”. “Repair” I wold take to mean either a) replacing the sound board or b) removing the strings then adding a thin wood stiffener from the inside at the bass end. Item ‘A’ is expensive, Item ‘B’ not so much but would compromise the tone somewhat. How much I can’t say of course but it should in any case be done by an experienced harp technician.

-Given the above I think there is room for negotiation about the price and what they would charge for making the repair.

One option I always suggest when someone has a price constraint: consider one of Musicmakers kits, in this case the Jolie or Ballad:

https://www.harpkit.com/diy-harp-kits

They are easy to put together and in your price range,although levers are not included and I do not know what shipping and VAT would cost. Maybe ask your son to take a look at the assembly instructions?

FYI levers are actually easy to add, some easier than others. Rees levers, available from Robinson’s Harp shop cost $11 US the last time I checked.

Biagio

[Fiona Kidd]

Had a look at the Ballad. Looks quite a nice harp. Problem with importing anything from America is the import duty and having to add on VAT (Value Added Tax which is 20% of the cost).

I looked at Dusty Strings site earlier in the year and by the time import duty, VAT and often a lengthy wait for Customs clearance, the price was more or less the same as Morley Harps.

Good suggestion though and my son is very good at putting things together.

Either way, I intend to drive out to Morley Harps sometime this week. I will be like a kid in a candy shop. Also a good excuse to stop in for a meal in the nearby village. There’s a new seafood restaurant opened there. Quite fancy some fresh sea bass.

[wil-weten]

The recent problem with transporting harp Dusty harps from the US to Europe, is that the already high trans ocean shipping costs have skyrocketed. This means that these nice priced US harps have become high priced harps in Euro

I had another look at the ‘slightly damaged’ harp again and now I found some additional information (at the bottom with a brown coloured background).

I’m shocked to read this: “The harp was rented by a school – at it looks as if the base of the harp may have got damp / wet at some point in the rental – as there is some rust to the metal fittings on base plate and black laquer looks patchy. The soundboard has slightly bowed upwards at the base – so if the bottom 6th C string is plucked very hard, it can buzz against the pillar. Otherwise seems OK.”

To me this looks like recipe for serious problems later on. Biagio surely can explain better what these problems may be. Already if the bottom C-string is plucked very hard, it can buzz against the pillar. So, what would happen if the soundboard bows further upwards because of some process caused by earlier moist problems? The point is, the there is some rust to the metal fittings on the base plate, but, for me, even a bigger red flag: the black lacquer looks patchy. I’m afraid this means there was no single mishap with a glass of water or something, but a moist problem of longer duration. And I’m afraid this may have an effect to the glue that hold the (high quality) ply together and/or to the glue that between the soundbox and the soundboard. It may even have had an effect on the ply itself.

So, I would stay away of that second hand Dusty Ravenna. Now, I did have a look at other nice entry harp possibilities at Morley’s. I saw they sell Salvi harps too, and they have several of them in stock. If they speak to you, select the best one in sound (identical harps may still sound differently) and have the levers checked and adjusted (in the past Salvi there seemed to lack a quality control on the fitting of the levers, and though I heard they have improved, I would still have them checked before I would buy).

Perhaps the Salvi Mia 34 or the Salvi Titan 38 are still (almost) within your price range. Or you might consider their rental options e.g. “Buying Your Hired Harp

Lever Harps

At the end of the first three months’ rental period we would offer a credit of three rental payments.
At the end of the first year, we would offer eight months’ rental payments.
At the end of the second year, we would offer twelve months’ rental payments.”

Salvi lever harps are decent harps

[wil-weten]

Something went wrong while I was writing the above post and I know from experience that editing will mean that the post gets deleted…

Anyway, I understand you hesitate about sending the Gear4 Music harp back, but I think your son would like you to have a real nice harp that would serve you many years to come and which keeps a decent value at the second hand market. I understand you like the sound of that harp now, but I’m pretty sure, that when you start developing a proper harp technique and play together with other harps, you will very much notice the difference in sound quality with other entry level harps, like those of Salvi or Dusty, and then, you’ve got a harp that is very difficult to resell.

[Biagio]

Wil Weten has expanded extremely well on the problems that I only briefly described, so well done Wil. Fiona could take a chance on the used Ravenna perhaps and it is worth taking a look anyway. However I have to say that unless someone has a lot of experience understanding how harps are actually made, buying a used one with obvious issues is probably a recipe for disappointment, or at least a lot of work.

Here two examples:

Someone brought me a small double strung on which the external string rib had splintered in several places, causing it to buzz. The choices were to replace the rib completely or fill the splintered places with high strength epoxy. Either easy in description but both would take a number of hours in labor, around $500 worth. Since the harp came to the owner for free she had me do the repair but if she had seen it for sale I’d have advised her to take a pass.

I had an opportunity to acquire a Clark model A for $500 with cracked neck, broken off knee block and a tilted over Neck-pillar joint. Not terribly difficult to fix but to do so also meant making and replacing several of the shaping blades, which are no longer commercially available. Well, I did and sold the thing for a decent amount but honestly, it would not have been worth the effort. I was just bored.

In sum, Fiona, when you go to look at the Ravenna at Morley examine it very carefully, especially to see if any of the SB laminations have separated. That low C may buzz against the pillar but it may also be buzzing because of lam separation. If that is the case you will have real problems down the road.

[Fiona Kidd]

Wil and Biagio. Thank you both for your replies.

I wonder just what did happen to that poor Ravenna. I’m not an expert on wood but I would have thought to get damage like that it would have had to be left standing in water for some time then was probably put near a heat source to dry it out quickly which, I think would warp the wood, plus the amount of rust underneath it. I also noticed it does not come with a carry bag so I wonder what happened to that. The Ravenna is only 2 years old. I know when Morley rent out harps, the renter has to take out insurance for it so surprised it hasn’t been replaced/repaired by the insurers.

I will phone and enquire about it tomorrow and maybe go and see it but with your input and my instinct, hard though it might be to pass up the chance of a Ravenna, I think I’ll give that one a miss.

Maybe I should give my own harp a bit longer to settle. I haven’t played it today yet but I did run my fingers over the strings and it sounded in tune apart from the E6 which is still stretching.

Maybe I should just keep the G4M and save up for a Ravenna at a later date if I get more advanced. I’m trying to get my son interested in the harp so he might get it someday. He was learning the violin and doing quite well at it but he’s a kidney transplantee and when he was on dialysis they had to put a subcutaneous tube for the dialysis (known as a Herograph) which runs from inside his left elbow, up his arm, along his shoulder, up over the collarbone and stops about 1/2 inch from his heart. Needless to say, it is in the position where the violin rests on and even with a violin rest, it caused him a lot of discomfort so he’s given up. He’s also deaf and wears hearing aids in both ears but that doesn’t stop him. In fact, nothing’s ever stopped him but then I never wrapped him in cottonwool either when he was younger.

Who knows. We could be playing duets in the future.

[Fiona Kidd]

Spoke with a lady at Morley Harps this afternoon. I got the impression they are “covering all their bases”. They don’t seem to know either exactly how the harp came to be water damaged but she did say the stand and the carrybag were also missing. She invited me to come and see the harp for myself so I’m going there on Thursday afternoon. It’ll be a nice drive out through some really beautiful scenery. Trees here are gorgeous shades of russet, browns and golds at the moment.

I did tell her about my own harp and she said they’d be more than happy to have their expert look at it and tell me what’s wrong. Their Luthier isn’t there all the time so I’d have to make an appointment when he is there.

Ironically, after I’d finished practicing my piano last night I plucked each string to the piano and the harp, with the exception of 2 strings – the E6 and D4 were out of tune. The D4 was only slightly out. Took the two strings up to pitch and had a nice hour’s practice.

I also tried putting the harp into G major and D major. The levers, although stiff do actually work.

We will see what Thursday brings.

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