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Alison- this is good info. As a singer, I know about posture, but it had not been addressed like this in the materials I have read and worked with. Perhaps a forum on Posture, release, allowing the shoulders to be ‘down’ (while arms are up!) might be a good topic for future fora.
This may be off-topic (but I don’t know where to ask the question).
Are there many videos of great harpists playing? Are there any videos or cinematic records of Grandjanay, or Salzedo?
I know of the old Mildred Dilling video, and of course there is Harpo Marx. It would be nice to have YT links to some of today’s harpists, etc. as well!
Because in almost all other art forms, you learn so much by watching the ‘greats’ at their craft, and apart from videos made for that purpose, how does someone get to find visual records of these sorts of performers? Thanks in advance.
As a classical singer, I encourage my students to stand ‘at a gentle attention’ to raise the ribcage and give a nice expanse of the sternum. I try to do that with harp, but I also remind myself every five minutes or so, to ‘let my shoulders’ drop as well, and feel the ‘weight in the arms’ to be the power in the attack- whether for piano or harp! Work with an Alexander Technique teacher might be a help.
I also have had ROLFING done, and (for me) it was a total game changer. I initially had it done because of a ‘rear-end’ car accident (thirty years ago), but also (three years ago) had it done for my Left hand, which had become torqued at the wrist. The release and relaxation have been nothing short of miraculous- it’s what enabled me to learn the harp, in fact. There are certified ROLFERS all over the world.
Hope that helps.All very good points. I wish I had known you had already travelled the path I suggested to you. I would not have wasted your time- but as Biagio has said, nothing beats hearing and playing each individual instrument ‘up close and personal,’ to know if it’s the right instrument. Even something as mass produced as a major harp manufacturer (whether a DS FH36, or a L&H Odgen, or Model 23!) will give you different results…. how much more, then, with a custom designed instrument! I’ve read of people who made the ‘pilgrimage’ to Chicago, (pre-Covid) and asked to line up all the (say) “Salzedo” models L&H had on hand, and then they just went down the line, till they found one (or didn’t- that can happen, too!)
Best of luck. Let me know how it turns out!
Signor Biago:
Indeed, it has been two years since my last posting to this forum. I vowed in my last entry on this forum [fuhgeddaboutit] I would not come back, to someplace where I was so shoddily treated. Time has changed that viewpoint, however.So, I was surprised to read your last post. I never received this message you mention, but that could have been due to any number of issues-spam filters, not checking this account much, etc. However, I am grateful that you reached out to apologize to me. I had cause this last week to go back and re-read my comments on this thread, made as they were the very first week I signed up for this resource, and truly felt (and now am sure of it) that I had been greatly wronged, even at a distance of 24 months. I had tried to be factual, informative, and direct. That was all.
So, it’s a mark of a true gentleman, that you would acknowledge that wrong and seek to rectify it, especially on a public forum. I accept your apology. But it was not you who wronged me, initially. That person has never thought to do the right thing, as you have done.
Be that as it may, you asked a question in your last post, prior to the apology: “One might ask however, why go into all the other harps mentioned (from Troubadour to Marini to Stoney End and so on) if he is studying with a teacher?” Because the person who initially started this thread, wanted to know what others thought about folk/lever harps- that’s the simple answer. I merely was giving (as I said) my ‘two cents worth.’ Since I had just come fresh from my first AHS conference (the Redlands 2018 conference), I felt I was in a position to give my opinion.
FWIW, as I’ve noted in a few new posts (this week- 10/2020), I eventually purchased a Salvi Diana (used) that I truly love, and am very pleased with my progress, my purchase, and my sound paradigm- as is my teacher. We also sold my Troub. IV, which I did NOT like, and have been working on pedal technique ever since.
But I still want to play a ‘folk/lever’ harp for accompanying myself as a singer: a pedal harp is NOT the instrument for that! I also have done much more research, and find that my needs (as a tall male) are vastly different (as I alluded to in my initial posts) than other harpists, when it comes to ‘folk/lever’ harps. It’s not just a matter of cost- it’s the applicability of harp size, string tension, upper body strength, (I’m studying Salzedo) and, above all, SOUND that is what was so elusive to me, starting out. Add to that, the expense for harps- sticker shock, I believe they call it. So, there you are.
I hope this time around I can make comments and not be made to feel unwelcome, simply because I am a male, and have strong opinions. For the record, I’m Highland Scots AND Irish- imagine my stubbornness! LOL
Mr. Thurau will send price lists upon request. I would say his harps are very high quality and quite beautifully crafted, as his clients include a lot of the triple harp ‘big names’ in the world, including Savall, Cheryl Ann Fulton, and Andrew Lawrence-King.
I, too, just ‘found’ the Cromos online. One video I really loved was this one- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giyr_PUCuK8
The harp is in the range of @ €5900, exclusive of VAT and/or shipping.
I just spoke with Mr. Boulding the other day, based on Biagio’s recommendation. (See, I do listen!) His website is ‘down’ at present, being re-done, but he sent me an updated (2020) price list.
Harps are made one at a time. They are quite reasonable, by comparison; however, harps do not come ‘complete’ as other manufacturers’ packages (e.g., DS, L&H, Rees) -but are custom-made, with as many (or as few) sharping levers as you may desire. Cost changes per lever, plus additional cost for a case.
(which I am not a fan of- of course you need levers and a case!?)He’s sending me sound samples. I can hardly wait.
Eric- Did you choose a harp? I would like to know what you chose.
I, too, have looked at Teifi harps, and even have been in contact with a number of players of same- all of whom love their Teifis. There is one music shop in the USA that deals with Teifi: Vermont Violins. https://www.vermontviolins.com/harps
Cost of import duties (Teifi told me) isn’t too much, but it’s the shipping from the UK to the States that will ‘get you.’ [@ £695] So, maybe getting a harp from a US dealer is the way to go.
As far as the Salvi Una- yes, it looks gorgeous. Yes, it’s a Salvi (I play a Diana pedal- so I love Salvi’s!) but I have listened online to a lot of different YT videos of the UNA (both deluxe and regular) and even talked with a rather well-known retailer about them; and we both agreed, the sound is NOT that of a harp I/we would want to own. It’s these new ‘composite’ strings a lot of manufacturers are coming up with. They just don’t say, ‘harp.’ They’re trying all these new combinations, and for non-classical, non-folk settings, maybe….but not for me.
Of course, it all depends on what you want to play. But your comment about the Teifi [ “…Has the most beautiful warmth and rich sound of harps in it’s class and price range as far as I can tell (all Teifi models seem to be this way)”] would give me to believe you WANT that ‘harpy’ sound. Balfour and Biagio, of course have their faves, but the fact that you are looking ‘outside the box’ of L&H/DS may mean you have to ‘go your own way,’ as Stevie Nix used to sing.
I’d like to know what you decide.
Hi, Sharon. I do not have one of Mr. Pierpont’s instruments, but the French Style harp is an absolute beauty of an instrument. I seriously looked at it, a couple years ago.
Have you contacted him? He does have audio files he can send you, and my limited interaction with him was cordial, informative, and friendly. He also sort of explained his harp construction rationale, which, for a newbie such as myself, was a great help.
Please let us know if you do decide to get one!
“So please, don’t be offended by Tacye’s remarks, and to be blunt, do not offend her or us by such comments. That is not very helpful for either.”
For the record, I didn’t start it. Who is this ‘us’?
And yes, the comment was over the top. I considered my initial response to the question (in a forum over a year old!) to be informative, carefully considered, and respectful to the makers of the various types of harps, and to their desire to make a living. I get that. It also (I feel) was germane in speaking to new harpists, as they negotiate the field of relating to commercial transactions involving thousands of dollars (which was the topic of the post).
Tayce’s immediate comment ignored all of that, and went right to an ad hominem attack. It was personally offensive, and rude.
To then seek to ‘put me in my place’ for noting same on your part, sir, is unwarranted in the extreme. And only confirms the point I was making, about vetting! As they say in the Godfather, Fuhgeddaboudit.
“The point is, as others stated before in this thread, is that beginners seldom know what they are looking for and how their [sic] fysique could influence their choice.”
And I, (for my part) as a ‘beginner’ on harp, was trying to help other beginners. FWIW. I stated my preferences in harps, by specifically noting my physique (Large, long-limbed male) for that reason. Thanks.
If you had read my post a bit more carefully as well, you would have noted I addressed many of the points you (tentatively) raised as not having been considered, when I DID consider them. In this era of soundbytes, sometimes a bit more attention to a post may be in order. Sigh.
Tayce- I replied earlier, but my post seemed to disappear.
So, I’m going to try and reconstruct what I initially said.
As to ‘gut-strung’ lever harps. Yes, I did try out and investigate the Boulevard at the AHS conference. For what it is, it’s a very useable instrument. Cost is at a good price point, as well. But you know, apart from that, it’s rather had to find such a wild beast (gut-strung) in a herd of nylon-strung harps!
I must say, your other comment was very odd. “…You mention people being reluctant to make definite recommendations – I think it is partly because we don’t know you well enough.”
I wasn’t aware that one needed to be ‘vetted’ on this forum, for an honest opinion to be made. In the matter of commerce, opinions are like people – everyone has one. If my opinion is not yours, that’s fine by me. But when dollars are at stake (or pounds, euros, etc.), at least someone giving insights, is better than none at all. For example, if you don’t like a certain movie, you can tell people that, and even go so far as to say, ‘Don’t waste your money… or your time.’ Well, spending thousands of dollars, rather than $10, makes ANY opinion that much more valuable- in time, money, and worrying.
But not allowing, or (worse yet) denigrating an opinion simply because it IS an opinion, is like the group mindset exemplified by the NPC meme- a chilling desire to stifle any speech, precisely because it is not ‘approved speech.’ Even (especially?) in the simple matter of buying a harp.
Now, having said all that, I understand people want to know where a person is coming from. I’ve alluded to my background in prior posts, but perhaps you’d like to know more about me.
I am an operatic basso, with a DMA in voice performance, and am a college professor of Music. I played viola in HS, College, and local community orchestras, before a bone degeneration thingy made that wrist torquing too painful. I’ve been an NPR announcer, and have sung on the stage, and even danced in ballet when younger! (which is why I love the harp part in Nutcracker) After some bodywork (Rolfing) my wrists are doing much better, and I find that horizontal or vertical hand positioning relative to the lower forearm, does NOT give pain- thus, piano and harp are viable options. I’m studying with a Salzedo lineage pupil, and want to play lever harp, to sing and play Celtic music, as this is my ethnic heritage. Hopefully, that helps with the ‘vetting’ aspect. Pax.
“my experience has been that many buyers have only a vague idea of what they want until the agent figures that out and shows it.”
LOL – it’s among the reasons I didn’t STAY in RE.
Right, Biagio- but, (continuing with the house analogy) having been a Realtor once upon a time for a while -between Grad school and DMA work -when the right house appears, the buyer KNOWS it!
Gail- I know this is a year later (almost) but I have worked with a Troubadour (IV) as my ‘beginning harp,’ and recently tried out both Rees and Marini harps, visiting their ‘home/showroom.’ I’ve also played on a Stoney End, renting one for the summer, while waiting for my much-delayed pedal harp to finally arrive. So, from my (limited) perspective, let me give you my ‘gut’ reaction, to the three types of harps you mentioned in your post.
My observations (having only used nylon-strung harps, until @ 2 months ago, when I got a used pedal harp…) are based merely on a novice harpist’s tactile sensations, and my ear. But, as I am a singer, (and teach ear training at the college where I work) and have listened to harp recordings for years, I think I am being fair in my assessments…
My Troubadour was ‘firm’ in its ‘pluck’ but (model IV) was dull in the all-nylon version, though changing strings did liven things up a bit. The newer Troubs are all pedal nylon (1st/2nd), then pedal gut (3rd, 4th, half of 5th), I believe, so that will give a different sound. I cannot talk to the newer L&H instruments, and have not seen/played an Ogden, so cannot speak to that, either.
The Stoney End harp I rented initially was quite pleasurable- these harps are nicely constructed, and quite a bit of instrument…for the money. But you get what you pay for, as they say. (string chart here)
http://www.stoneyend (dot) com/_downloads/string-charts/StringChart_Marion.pdfThe model (Marion) I had used nylon in upper octaves- bright, clear and lovely resonance on the instrument I rented, but when it went down to the octave below middle C, and then the double-wound nylon in 5th octave, both my teacher and I found it sadly lacking – I said to him, “it was like playing rubber bands”- the lower octaves’ strings oscillation was so wide, (causing a lot of ‘buzzing’) – it made me feel I would NEVER learn to have a good hand position and attack – which magically ‘disappeared’ once I got my pedal harp, and started working with a normal spacing and gut ‘tension’…hmmm).
– As I started practicing 30-45 minutes a day, and built up some hand strength, the ‘pluck’ on the SE began to feel so light, that anything approaching pedal harp pull in playing louder music would cause the lower strings to ‘smack’ -and thus, necessitated playing with less than 1/4 the force on the bottom octaves. Then, in order to achieve anything like an equitable dynamic between LH and RH, that restriction then made the entire harp less ‘sound-worthy.’ I was confined to a ‘nice, safe mp’ most of the time. (I only knew what I was missing, when I went to another teacher later in the summer, and she had me play on her L&H 40 for my lessons, and it was like someone had turned on my ‘harp switch’- I ‘got’ what playing a REAL harp was like….).
After going to the AHS conference and seeing all sorts, ages, and types of pedal harpists play in large AND small rooms, I knew that a strong ‘pull’ to get some SOUND out of a harp is more normative, than the ‘plinking’ so many amateur harpists seem to give on their YT videos. Sure, you can get an amplifier built in, but folk harp (which is what I am looking for in a lever-style harp) is supposed to be an ACOUSTIC, not an electric rock-concert instrument. So, perhaps my harp paradigm is going against the tide… so be it. FWIW, I still feel amplification of a poor instrument, is a major cop-out, when compared or contrasted against quality of construction.
In late summer, I returned to school, and got a chance to visit both Rees and Marini shops. Rees harps are truly well-constructed, are visually appealing, and offer a lot of options (including double strung, as do the StoneyEnd folk), and RH are more willing to ‘tweak’ their harps for individual players- Garen at the shop suggested wire strings for the low A and G (above Low C), where they (also) habitually use double-nylon wrapped strings for a harp I was looking at- that would have solved my ‘rubber band’ problem with one of their models. The RH sound was also fuller,and a decided step up from the SE… but so was their pricing! RH’s of a comparable size/string count, are almost twice the cost of a comparable SE, esp. the double-strung.
[And now you are also up in the L&H/Salvi/Camac range of ‘folk’ harp, so it’s a case of comparing merely not apples to oranges, but Delmonico Sirloin to Ossobucco, Boeuf Bourgignon, and Angus beef!]
Marini harps are made by a dear couple whose initial calling has been to make instruments for many who are either homeschooling families, or for those who see music as a ministry. That is not to say that their harps are only for those buyers- hardly. Construction of these instruments is on a scale/par much like RH and MusicMaker’s (of MN.) Indeed, many of the patterns of Marini harps started out as MM kits,as he confided in me. But their lap, and other smaller harps are now their ‘niche’ market, and the larger harps (Regency model, for example) is almost identical to the discontinued MM variant.
As far as sound, the Marini’s are fairly evenly balanced, with only a slight ‘tubbiness’ in the larger models, that some might find desirable. But the lack of a concert gut/pedal gut option on all of these types of ‘folk/lever’ harps, means disappointment, if you are looking for that ‘warm’ sound you only get with a pedal harp. Or you don’t like playing rubber bands….
However, one side note about Marinis- whereas Rees Harps show you the complete price with Levers, Marini offers lever combos as ‘options’- which, for some, is a good deal. For me, the cost differential was non-existent, once a full set of levers was added on to the base model.
Thus, Lever Harps seem to hover (for the vast majority of makers- whether corporate or individual) in the $4000-6000 dollar range these days. Which is a lot of catgut…
[This review does not touch on the custom-made harp makers out there- Thormahlens, Norris, Mountain Glen, Kemper, etc. They are in a class of their own, but they are (or can be, once you decide on all the ‘goodies’ you want) also even more costly, and one will have to think long and hard about paying close to the cost of a good used pedal harp, before deciding on one of those beauties!
So, apart from the StoneyEnd harps – and some of the Rees/Harpsicle configurations, most harp manufacturers these days are checking their competitor’s prices, and charging accordingly- which doesn’t tend to the buyer’s benefit, to be honest. And hearing much the ‘same old, same old’ sound paradigm from one vendor of harp to another, (coupled with a subtle dig with more than one folk manufacturer’s printed materials inveighing against pedal harpists; by insinuating they are ‘snobs’ in stating pedal tension is the norm, in order to lull prospective harp sales of all nylon-strung instruments!? Well, umm, yea, it is!) makes the choice of purchasing any Lever Harp either totally subjective; (I really like xxxx model, or I want XXXX brand, because “so and so” has one) or instead, a long, agonizing soul-searching process, especially when you cannot HEAR many of these harps in person, because they either are: a)located in remote, out of the way locations, or b) don’t ship to other vendors.
Which exercise in frustration, is no fun for anyone.
Perhaps there is an unwritten rule among harpists that one shouldn’t have strong opinions (as it isn’t ‘nice,’) but in this case, having a “caveat emptor” attitude about the purchase of an instrument with so many possible variables (unlike, say, violin) at a cost of some thousands of dollars, is foundational to one’s harping happiness. Them’s my 2 cents. Hope that helps.
