Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
You’re right about the wax, Bill. Wax would make future repairs more difficult; as would the aliphatic resin that was likely used as the original glue. We still use hide glue in the pipe organ industry, but almost no one else does.
What I was assuming (and didn’t say) was that he would use a colored wax stick and only rub it in to the very top surface of the crack. I should have been more specific; if he runs wax down inside, it would make future repairs harder.
My opinion: I think whomever you talked to is correct. Monitor the problem. I don’t see why you couldn’t fill it with a little colored wax filler on the surface instead of paper. If the wax then later appreciably separates, you will know it is still moving. It will move a little with the weather, perhaps, but not much. I suspect that opened up very soon after the string tension stressed the body top and bottom, neck, and column, and hasn’t moved since. In other words the body gave way a little under the stress and opened that glue joint.
With a pin in the middle of that joint, the pin plus the glue joint in shear is taking the force. The glue on end grain (from the neck) won’t hold much, even epoxy. But the lower, separated part of that joint, which is in tension, is not and never was carrying the main load. What is holding it is the top part in compression acting to push against the top and bottom of the body. And that is what will cause eventual failure, if it happens: if the body moves further where the column bottom or neck press on it.
If you put epoxy in it, it won’t hold sufficiently in tension with end grain coated (previously, I would assume) with glue. You will just make a mess making it even harder to fix if it does let go eventually. And epoxy is the devil to get off existing finish if you smear it around any.
Charles Nix
Biagio is right–tone between the various string materials is very subjective and hard to describe.
You said you are keeping the tension constant. At identical tension, and constant length, a denser string such as nylgut must have a smaller diameter. Fluorocarbon will be smaller yet–and will take forever to stretch out at (we’re assuming) rather low tension.
There’s no difference in calculating nylgut or fluorocarbon strings–same process, same spreadsheet, different numbers.
All in all, I would look at getting the tension as a percentage of breaking strength up higher. You can do that by increasing tension or by decreasing diameter. NN wound strings in the bass would have higher mass while keeping the %BreakingStrength high, if you can get them made fine enough for the pitch range of you harp. They will cost a lot less than nylgut or fluorocarbon, and will go through humidity changes similarly to the other nylon strings.
Charles Nix
I’m assuming that you haven’t moved it much previously and don’t already have a cart?
If I’m wrong, please excuse, because you will already know a lot of the below. To answer your first question, I have the American Harp Cart–have not used others. I do like it: well made of maple, large wheels make it a bit easier on stairs, two strong straps. I made some slip-on pads of heavy piano keybed felt for the straps for extra protection where the straps pass the soundboard and column. Your cover set might provide enough protection for the straps; mine didn’t.
You need at least a base cover as well as the main cover–mostly because sooner or later you will have to unload in the wet, and the base cover will protect from dings and wet ground.
I also use a large flat plywood with rollers to pull out of the vehicle slanting down to the ground. One person can lay the harp down on it then go to the end and slide into the vehicle.
Carl Swanson’s book on harp maintenance has an extensive section on moving that is extremely helpful.
Charles Nix
I expect you will get some other responses with more experience–but I am in the same situation. 2 hours from any major city. I am in southeast US. I learned (and still am learning) how to do it myself. Read and understand Steve Moss’s maintenance columns which you can find with a google search. Get a copy of Carl Swanson’s book and thoroughly understand everything in it. I found that understanding what to do was insufficient–that an understanding of why was essential–a lot of regulation adjustments can be accomplished more than one way, and knowing which way would be best was the hardest part. Then be prepared to invest in proper tools and equipment, including a really accurate strobe tuning machine (like a Peterson 450, 550, or 590), and hollow ground screwdrivers (so you won’t slip and scratch the wood or brass or mess up the screw heads). Also, if you are regulating, you will probably break some disc retaining screw heads off, so you will have to extract the screw shank from the spindle and replace the screw without damaging the harp. I drape a pad over the soundboard beside the strings just in case you drop a tool.
Not that technicians with years of experience might not do things differently–these are just what I do.
If your felts were replaced with the last regulation, then replacing them should, in theory, put your regulation back closer than it is now–all other things, like string wear, being equal. You will really need to pull tightly on the felt when it is put on to pack it as much as possible. Be sure you wrap in the correct direction for the left and right pedals. And go ahead and check for string wear before you start: you want to get any string replacement done before you regulate. You may end up with the regulation coming back close to where it was a year and a half ago.
If you don’t like the regulation after you finish, then you can decide what to do. IMO, unless you mess up the felt replacement, you will only be closer than where you are now, and not worse.
There are some real experts on this board; maybe someone else will give further advice.
Charles Nix
Thank you, Biagio! I see the L&H Performance levers on harp.com for $15 each. The Camac levers are listed at 9.50 Euro. Then there are the Delacour ($$$), and the new Teifi (GBP 8.50 a steal at current exchange rate). I haven’t seen the Teifi in person, but it is a most interesting design and I would sure be ordering one for evaluation if I were considering relevering an instrument.
There are a lot of choices–all with pros and cons–all with fans and detractors. There is probably enough wood below the nut on a Troubadour neck to mount any of them, but you would want to check to be sure. Mounting point and overhang below/above the lever is not standardized.
There was a useful web page somewhere around that listed most of the levers available. Oh, I see that it has disappeared, but Biagio has re-created it and added/updated the information here: http://harp.wikia.com/wiki/Sharping_Levers_for_Harps.
Keep in mind the cheaper levers are designed to meet a price point for newly-built less expensive harps–so that one can build a fully-levered harp on a very tight margin without losing money. The more expensive levers make a cleaner, more accurate sound. Jordan, Universal, maybe Robinson, are roughly equivalent to what you already have on your Troubadours. I’m assuming your harps are Troub I, II, or III. I’ve never seen a I or II in person. The III had a cast nylon flip down lever/fret pin combination. The Troub IV had Lovelands, then V and VI had L&H Performance.
Charles Nix
You would have to judge for yourself if you can do it. There will be two main skills. First is the woodworking skill to fill all the old screw holes, level them off flush, stain to match, and touch up the finish–all while not damaging the surrounding finish–or plan on a complete refinish. The screw holes will not match. Do you know how to drill the new screwholes the proper size and exact depth with a hand drill exactly straight into the wood and precisely on the mark? Tolerance for a good fit will be 1/64″ accuracy or better. If they are not really mounted straight they won’t regulate properly, and will look like ****. Anything you do that is not perfect _will_ show. I can’t remember what bridge pins or nuts are used on the old Troubadours, but you will likely have to adjust their height, which _may_ mean resetting or replacing the tuning pins. Or the string height may work out fine with new levers–but that is something you will have to determine before ordering the levers. The second skill will be regulating the levers after installation. Do you have the equipment and skill to restring and regulate the harps?
Another thing to consider is the cost of levers. Pricing varies greatly with the brand and quality of the lever–but a large chunk of the $1500 you quote goes straight into parts. Without looking up current prices I’m guessing $12-$25 (and some higher) for each lever–times 36. You will likely have to restring, also–At least I wouldn’t try removing the strings and putting the same ones back on. Was that part of the $1500? Were the new strings included? I would have to think about the time involved–maybe 30-40 man-hours total–maybe twice as much if you haven’t done it before.
I don’t want to dissuade you–you may well have all the skill necessary. It isn’t that difficult a job, but requires very exacting woodworking skills, and the tools and knowledge to restring and regulate afterward. It also takes sufficient free time, and the willingness to risk damage to someone else’s harp. If you’re not very experienced with precise fine woodwork, and you don’t already do your own harp restringing and regulating, I wouldn’t recommend starting with lever replacement, particularly on someone else’s harp.
Have you thought about selling them and purchasing used later model Troubadours? The price difference might be less than the lever job would cost.
These are just some things to think about. There are other people on the site who will probably have some to add to what I’ve said. If you do bite it off, we will do what we can to help guide you through it.
Charles Nix
This is a harp/organ, and you did say solo, but what about A Christmas Tryptich from Vox Coelestis by Samuel Milligan?
As a professional working with wood, it looks like pin knots (neck) and a sap area (body side) on cherry to me. It is hard to see in the pictures, but if you look at the finish sideways, I think you’ll see that the finish layer is unbroken as it passes over the spots on the neck.
It is very common to suddenly notice details when examining for damage. We build pipe organs. We once had an organist refuse final payment on a job because an octave of pipes weren’t working. The organ was 30 years old at the time, and she had been playing the instrument for nearly 20 years. The octave in question was not included in the factory specs, and had never worked, because there had never been pipes nor actions to play them installed. We finally had to show her the factory construction blueprints to convince her. She was sure they had always worked before or she would have noticed.
I think you’re fine, unless there is some information not showing in the pictures. Will be glad to look at other photos, if you still think otherwise.
Charles Nix
I wonder if both the hardest part and most transferable skill in learning to play any first instrument is reading music–especially for those instruments like harp that play many notes at once from a grand staff.
From that perspective: what about piano or organ? Both are widely used for folk and pop. Neither generally expect to have the player singing along. Many technical details are similar, though you do have to learn a different fingering pattern for each major and minor key.
Charles Nix
Some internet research shows one edition of that <span class=”biblio_isbn”>ISBN: 9780000178947 (0000178942)</span><span class=”biblio_pub_date”>Publication Date: January 1979 Publisher: Eleri Owen
</span><span class=”biblio_format”>Format: Paperback, 20 pages</span> <span class=”biblio_language”>Language: Welsh Out of Print
</span>Just some thoughts–maybe one will be one you haven’t tried, since your time is short:
1)Email to Clive Morley Harps — they have a lot of music available for download.
2)Search for Harpists websites on the internet that list that piece in their repertoire, and email them directly.
Hope one of these will be something you haven’t tried.
Interesting. This may be a little more complicated. If there is just no chance of getting the pedal harp key on, you may have the 0.210″ size. Robinson’s harp shop can help with their #5 key, or, I’ve been told that a standard drum key from any music store fits fine. They’re usually not black rubber T-handled keys, but are all metal or mounted in a wood handle.
However, you may have a situation like mine: my lever harp came with a black rubber key. It is supposed to be concert harp size, with concert size pins. However, a new black rubber key I bought will not comfortably work on that harp. Some pins it will go on very tightly; some pins it won’t go on at all; some it partially goes on. Apparently that harp has “standard concert” pins, but they are just a few thousandths oversize, and a tight, well-made concert key doesn’t fit. Both keys work just fine on a pedal harp.
So, will the key not go on at all (as would be the case with 0.210″) or will it sort of go on at least some of them?
Charles
The concert harp tuning key fits a 0.185″ square pin. Many lever harps use that size, but there are two common smaller sizes and one larger size in use. So, my first question would be “Does the concert key not go on at all, or does it spin around once put on?”
The real way to tell is to measure across the square head of the tuning pin with a micrometer or good dial caliper. The other common sizes are 0.210″ (Rees harps, drum keys) 0.176″ (Dusty Strings) and 0.160″ (Triplett, all zither pins, some harpsichords).
Any information you can add will help nail down the specifics, like “Do the pins screw in and out of the neck when turned?” or are they smooth, tapered pins like on a pedal harp?
Charles Nix
I use KF for the top end of my lever harp. It was designed for nylon, but I lowered the design pitch a fourth, and needed the extra density up there for the now-short scaling at the top. My nylons show tone changes after about a year. Sometimes the KFs go two years. But I agree with Biagio: all strings wear out.
The question becomes, though, what does the owner think about the sound? If they can’t hear the difference, or don’t care, how does one convince them? I’ve taken in lever harps for regulation that had never had new nylons in 15 years, and pedal harps with wrong octave strings on. Unless you can educate the owner to the difference, it is a hard sell.
Don’t suppose you can see enough wear where the discs engage to demonstrate they need changing that way, can you?
Charles Nix
That’s how I read Michael’s chart also–lighter gauge. About three notes lighter at the top to even by the bottom of 2nd octave, then back up to two notes lighter, tapering to the even in the bass. It is not much different; and how well it worked might depend on the exact harmonic curve of a particular instrument.
Could this be something that would work better when the upper octaves are a bit longer than they were in older instruments? Carl, has there been any trend to longer or shorter string scales with age of instrument?
On the other hand, fewer false notes, a cleaner sound, and longer life would be better on any instrument!
Charles Nix
