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If the pin had come out of the disc, leaving its socket hole in the disc intact, and the pin unbent, the best solution is to solder it back in. At least that has always been successful for me.
Anyone who does electronic repairs should be able to do that without harming the plating on the disc.
I have had challenges with parts from L&H. As of my last contact purchasing (about a year ago) the procedure was: call L&H West — they now hold stock on all the parts. But the information about _which_ part is needed, part numbers, descriptions of parts, is still in Chicago. You can eventually get the parts you need, and perhaps they have smoothed up their internal procedures by this point.
All this assumes you know exactly how to remove the disc, replace the disc, and get it back in regulation. If not, you need a harp technician, who can handle all of the above for you.
Tuning organs is my profession for nearly 50 years. I’ve never seen or heard of an organ that high. Standard organ pitch is A=440 at 70 deg. If the pipes are at about 105 deg, that might happen. Are you Sure of the pitch? Is this a European historical reproduction instrument? I calculate that it is 70 cents sharp of pitch, agreeing with Carl.
Unless the organ is actually manufactured at some high historical pitch, an organ can’t even be tuned higher than typically 445 or so at 70 deg. F
What is the instrument, or what is the church and city?
Are the strings going to tune up to that pitch also?
Seems like the organist should transpose down, and everyone else tune to roughly A=435.
Regarding the harp, I did a rough approximate calculation that the total tension would increase more than 10%. If you can’t transpose up, and the organist won’t transpose down, and that is an accurate pitch they want–if it were me, I would refuse the gig. No gig is worth the strings you will break, let alone risking a soundboard.
Seriously, though, surely there is some mistake: do they never play with flutes or brass? None of those would ever come close to moving short enough to play at that pitch.
You will almost certainly have to fill in holes and redrill for almost any lever. And you will have to refinish or accept seeing the old filled holes. Either also means restringing.
Your best option is to order a sample Truitt and/or Forte and see how they will fit on your harp. Lever mountings also require varying amounts of open neck width. So order a sample and see how it fits up and down the string band. The fret point for the new lever will be _approximately_ the same as your current levers.
Also suggest adding up what this will cost just in parts. And if you’re not totally confident in your ability and skills for the tasks required, consider what it might cost to have a professional take over the project if you get stuck.
A good plan might be to start with a scrap piece of finished wood, drill and mount a lever or two on it, then remove, fill the holes and remount. And understand that you will be working to very tight tolerance or it will look very crooked.
Base covers come in sizes. A lever harp has a much smaller base than a pedal harp. Likewise, a 40 string harp has a much shorter column than a concert grand.
A proper cart is the least expensive thing you will buy for the harp. Strings cost more. Not to mention how much it costs to repair the harp you dropped trying to “make do” with an inferior method. I use the American Harp Cart. There are others as good. Some are better on stairs.
They’re certainly less good than new ones, but not as bad as ones that have been played for 30 years. There is not an “expiration date”. Lots of people play with 30 year old wires and are happy. Harpists who want everything the best it can be change every 1-2 years. You can get some idea from the brightness of the color, particularly on the silver/copper ones.
Gregg, I’ve not examined either Ana. But the same model harp need only specify that it “looks” the same: same angles, same neck, etc. And the strings lengths for a given pitch are the same (ideally) regardless of the diameter of the string. So, you can certainly change the stringing gauge, while tuning to the same pitches, without any problem of breaking strings, or having them too flabby sounding. (assuming we’re talking about identical string material in both cases)
They could, certainly, build the lever soundboard thinner, to let it be more resonant, since it doesn’t have to support as much tension. Whether they do or not is a different matter. Lever gauge will absolutely resonate a thicker soundboard–just not at as much volume, but probably not a huge difference. Both production cost and market segment they are aiming at would be part of what they are considering. Maybe they offer the lever option so that young children can still get a good pluck, and then change to pedal gauge as the student grows older and has stronger fingers and better technique.
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I’m not saying they do any of that
— I have no idea — but it sounds like a reasonable approach for a harp marketed to beginning students looking to progress to pedal harp. (And that is exactly the way they describe that model on their website.)
Dusty strings has models that can be strung multiple ways. The soundboard thickness thing isn’t an absolute issue for working/not working — it is just getting an ideal “biggest” sound from a gauging — and I’ll bet that a soundboard that doesn’t ever break under warranty is much more important to a manufacturer’s interest than one that has the last few percent of the “biggest” sound possible.
Absolutely string what the manufacturer says. If you use too light tension, they will likely not have enough power to energize the thicker soundboard, which is made to hold pedal tension strings.
Also, if you change string gauges, the harp will have to re-settle in, and need a complete regulation. It is an expensive experiment, and you need to be clear on the goal and how realistic the goal is.
If by “fuller” you mean just more gross volume, probably nothing but a larger harp will help. That is a very different request from “brighter”.
Brighter (somewhat) you could probably achieve with a custom set of fluorocarbon. They would be smaller gauge at the same tension. You need to be able to calculate string gauging, restring the harp, wait six weeks for everything to settle in while tuning every day, then completely re-regulate the harp. It would all probably cost near $1000 to have a tech do it. It would work to some extent, because the tension is still the same, but the string diameter is smaller. You would also have a harp probably worth a bit less on the market because it wasn’t standard any more.
If you don’t like the sound of the harp, either correct your technique (if that’s the problem) or find a harp you do like the sound of.
What is different about a “harper” fakebook from just a fakebook?
What are you looking for? A certain genre of tunes? Learning to play/improvise from lead sheet? What’s the goal of moving away from pieces specifically arranged for harp?
(Please don’t hear disapproval–I play often from lead sheet and can offer some suggestions, but this could go in several different directions.)
Charles Nix
I wonder if it is wise to go from existing gauge? After all, it is impossible that any of the extant strings are actually original at 110 years old. And who know what was put on by whom in the mean time. That could be part of the reason for the neck failure.
And restringing even with lever strings will immediately require regulation. There is no way that every single disc will close fully on smaller gauge strings throughout the harp.
This seriously needs the in-person evaluation and advice of a qualified technician. Only someone who knows exactly how the original necks were being built in that time period, and how to be sure this one _is_ truly still the original neck, can reliably tell how bad the damage is. And you might find out it isn’t that bad.
A veneer crack is not of consequence. But I would hope the underlying wood is somewhat more than 1″ thick. Many later harps would use piano pin plank laminate for the neck internal. But even _pianos_ of that age did not use what we now consider standard pin plank.
How far is the neck warped out of plane? Will the disc prongs on 4C and 3C engage the strings in the center, or are they near the tips? Is the neck crack up near the knee block where the last action screw goes through?
But nothing can substitute for a tech looking in person. Perhaps one is not too far from you? Where are you located?
Between the BB schedules for light, and Savarez’ wide range of available sizes, (and Vanderbilt and Premiere) lots of custom gauge sets at any degree of “lightness” can be assembled if needed. Most will require special order to assemble a full set.
The big deal is we don’t know how bad or where the “cracks” are. Is it a vertical crack in the top veneer of soundboard? (Likely no problem at all.) Is the center of the soundboard bulging alongside the center strip (Big deal for sure.) Is the crack in the neck? (Very big deal). Is the crack in the body? (No big deal to extremely big deal, depending.) And, with a harp that age, how many people have “tried” to repair these cracks before OP acquired it?
Perhaps we will hear back from the OP…
You can not clean all the strings with anything that will not ruin them. And you should never have any metal polish near any part of the harp. The abrasive will find it’s way into the action.
If I Just HAD to do something, I would clean the C’s and F’s by rubbing with a non abrasive nylon pad to lighten up the tarnish on just those.
Vermont strings has retired. Their son in law runs North Shore Strings. However, they are a custom folk harp string supplier.
You need pedal harp gut strings at a lighter gauge. Directly contact Carl Swanson at Swanson harp, or Bell Harp, or one of the long established L&H certified techs. Lyon and Healy build new harps. Go to a very good independent shop for a rebuild. At least that’s my opinion. The lack of response is not unusual, in my experience.
You will probably be at Bow Brand light gauge, and may have to have custom bass wires.
But a good tech needs to look at it first to assess the damage and condition.
Neither Vanderbilt nor Premiere are enough gauge difference to matter in helping the harp hold the tension.
Yes, Hannah, Balfour is exactly right. To tighten a pin, hold the neck of your harp in left hand near pin needing tightening. Put tuning wrench with your right hand on the pin, press your hands together while wiggling slightly, until the pin will just hold tension with a bit of margin extra.
IF you get it too tight to turn, DO NOT force the turning. You can and will snap off the square head of the pin. If it’s jammed tight, tap gently on the small end of the pin with a hammer. Gently. Don’t miss. You can use a block of wood between if needed. But you will only very rarely get one jammed.
If you want to learn about your harp, purchase Carl Swanson’s book from Swanson Harps. And look up the blog and articles from Moss Harp Service. Both are excellent resources.
First off, apologies for delays in responding. You may not know that first-time posts with photos often get automatically flagged as spam. (You can probably figure out why.) The forum admins just now unflagged your post.
On to your questions. There are _no_ screw threads on pedal harp tuning pins. They are tapered, with a roughened surface in the middle. They are tightened only as needed by a firm push into the hole while wiggling or turning slightly. Only tighten as much as needed, and generally it is done at the same time as tuning.
There is absolutely no reason ever to loosen a pin two turns to back it out (on a pedal harp). Some lever harp have threaded pins that require this, but no pedal harps, and no lever harps by any of the major pedal harp makers. In fact, unnecessarily turning a pin will wear out the hole over time, and the tapered pin will seat farther in, exactly as you describe. This is normal, and yours is not enough to matter.
What you must watch on the lower gut strings are three things: 1) Do not EVER get so many wraps on the pin that it jams against the neck. If you get close, loosen a couple of turns, grab the free end with pliers, and pull 1/2-3/4″ through the hole, then retune and trim off.
2) Aim to have a minimum of 2.5-3 wraps on the pin when finished.
3) Aim to have some string angle angling closer to the next as the string leaves the nut and goes around the tuning pin. About 10-15 deg, probably. IOW, the string at the pin is closer to the neck plane than where it goes over the nut. This angle, coupled with the string tension and tuning pin taper is what maintains tension on the pins when you tune.It looks very much like the replacement is a nylon string instead of gut. They are not interchangable. They will sound different, and they will regulate differently. Pay for gut, especially in that lower range.
So, all your loosening and tightening is exactly why the pin protrudes too far. It can be shimmed if needed, (another post entirely) but it doesn’t really look that bad from what I can see in the photos.
You also say the 5B is still flat. So pull it up to pitch??? I’m not understanding why that was important to mention. And you do know that it tunes to Bb, right? And you know that you’ll be pulling that one up to pitch for about 2 weeks until it settles in.
Let us know what progress you make. I have a feeling there may be gaps in understanding still left unsaid.
Charles Nix
No one has jumped in, so here is what I tell people. You didn’t specify what harp, so some may not apply to you
Wires affect the sound of the entire harp, because they resonate with every other string on the harp. Many builders try to include at least 7 wire strings in the bass for this reason, if harp compass allows. Wires should be replaced every two years in regular usage. Maybe 3-4 years for casual usage. If they are not bright, or are corroded, they are long overdue. Ask a guitarist friend how much difference this makes.
Nylon and Fluorocarbon degrade gradually so that the changes are not usually noticed. In regular usage nylon not more than 2 years, fluorocarbon not more than 4 years. Somewhat longer for casual usage.
Gut usually breaks before it gets dead and ugly sounding, but not more than 3-4 years for regular usage.
Regular professional usage I recommend roughly half those times.
Fluorocarbon is for bright sound, and most of all for tuning stability, but that doesn’t mean it lasts forever. It still stretches and the polymer loses its cross-linking under the strain. It is still an expensive material, as is gut.
Most importantly, though, is that ALL new harps should be regulated at about the 2 year and 5 year point. Rarely does it sit on a builder’s floor long enough for any soundboard to belly completely under the strain.
Whether you can tell the difference or not, I can’t say. I’ve never restrung one over 5 years old that the customer failed to say “wow! I didn’t think it would make that much difference.”
12 years without a restring or a regulation is a looong time. Longer for some harps/builders than for others.
It is also important that the strings be put on correctly: non-slipping knots tied, wound on the pin the correct way, with the correct width of wraps giving correct string angle, and allowing for bridge pin height, tuning pin protrusion, regulation/buzzes in the lever assembly, etc.
Charles Nix
