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Greetings friends,
I started to feel guilty over my rather brusque comments to Mr. Moir, so wrote to him directly, suggesting an approach he might take for deciding on a harp to suit his needs. I copy that msg below in the hope that it might help others; comments or criticisms are of course always welcome:
Dear sir,
I am sorry that our discussion on the Harp Column became heated; no doubt there was misunderstanding on both sides. Well, I’ve cooled down and in the meantime thought of an approach that might help you to home in on a suitable harp (I’m assuming from your impressive background that you would prefer a top quality instrument). So you might consider the harps played by some of world-class musicians:
Frank Voltz – L&H Prelude
Maire ni Chathasaigh – Rees Aberdeen Meadows
Kim Robertson – Salvi Egan (no longer made but they turn up as used instruments)
Harper Tasche (Dusty Strings FH36)There are others of course; that gives you a modest but pretty diverse selection. As said earlier, it would be irresponsible of me to recommend any one in particular: these are all great harpists, all great harps…and all are different.
Best wishes,
Biagio SancettaEdit: WRT “cooling down”… it’s a weak excuse, I know, but I am half Sicilian and half Highland Scots, neither species known for their coolness of temper. Mea culpa etc. Perhaps he will rejoin us or join the Harplist.
My best to all,
BiagioHere’s a tip Harplynx if it would be useful…
It is easy to dye most nylon strings (but not FC which is hydrophobic). My lazy-boy method:
Mix up a batch of concentrated Rit fabric dye, add 2 T salt as mordant and a squirt of soft detergent such as Ivory (to accelerate the absorption) to 2L water, dump that with the strings in a slow cooker set on high and go read a book for a couple of hours (or whatever). Then just rinse the strings off and save the solution for the next time.
Rit retail grade Navy Blue is fine for the Fs; you should use their commercial crimson for Cs. The retail red comes out purple.
I have no doubt that you could make an excellent harp if you wished! Perhaps like me these days it is not worth the bother with so many excellent harps available at reasonable prices:-)
I just enjoyed making the things and hanging around with other luthiers, but eventually it all became more than I wanted to do at an advancing age LOL.
Cheers,
BiagioThat is good to know Harplynx; thank you on behalf of all who own this harps. Diverging a little and reaching for my soap box (stand by for the pompous lecture):
What, after all, is a harp? Simply put, it is an acoustic box as amplifier, a light but strong vibrating surface (or less so if wire strung but that’s for another time) and a fame to hold a set of strings at sufficient tension that they will neither break nor sound like rubber bands. If sharping is desired sufficient wood must be there below the bridge pin- as a practical matter the mathematical sharp point is defined as 0.055 x vibrating length.
So far so good and this is why harp makers begin the design with the strings. At least two professional string makers us a Basic program originally written by Mark Bolles in the early 80s. There are other programs, some of them more sophisticated and some are free.
To use those programs one should have a good understanding of different strings’ physical characteristics – density and tensile strength. From there it is a matter of determining the approximate height of the harp to guide in coming up with the appropriate vibrating lengths and then refining the result to produce a visually pleasing curve.
One program (which, being cheap, I use) is a free Excel spreadsheet. It might be enhanced; it does not allow for yellow or red brass for instance, silver can only be used as a winding material, and it does not include a graphic interface so the designer can see the harmonic curve as it develops. Someone who is an Excel whiz or has time on his hands could enhance it but as noted I’m cheap and also lazy so I haven’t bothered.
There are several good sources for further information – see for example Folk Harp Design and Construction by Jerry Brown, Rick Kemper’s discussion on his web site Sligo Harps, and for the thoroughly intrigued (or possibly bored) the Harpmakers forum, and the CD with early articles from the Folk Harp Journal (available from Musicmakers).
OK, soap box gone:-)
Biagio
Good article Wil. If you are inclined to delve deeper the ISFHC archivist – Musicmakers – has a CD available: “The Science of Harp Making.” Some of those articles get pretty dense reading (a couple discuss the Chladni effect in detail), others are accessible and quite interesting, even on occasion amusing. Mark Bolles’ article “The Great Wire Harp Wars” is hysterical.
Hi Harplynx,
Pakistani builders have an uphill struggle since the earlier instruments produced over there were universally condemned; most legitimate luthiers simply refused to work on them. I’ve seen and heard more recent ones that seemed good enough for economy instruments if the strings are music quality. They still appear to have trouble sourcing decent levers.
The harp world is closely knit and much of a maker’s reputation is spread by word of mouth – Rees does not even have to advertise. A decent harp is really not all that hard to design, and we would do with more decent but economical harps – hopefully the builders in Pakistan are learning, as everyone has had to do.
I’ve heard of fishing line used on some harps (and other instruments), most often South American ones. My impression is that standard nylon line would be fairly low tension – has that been your experience? The modern fluorocarbon lines can take much higher tension and indeed some builders just use the FC fishing line rather than the versions offered by Savarez Alliance and others.
Best wishes,
BiagioYeah, that would be messy to say the least. High end builders tune the board beforehand using the Chladni effect. The idea there is that a board will resonate in different nodes when tapped and those can be seen using glitter or more sophisticated measurements.
I think that Professor Kung addresses Chladni in one of his lectures.
Biagio
Wil,
Yeah, once it is glued on the SB would be messy to remove to say the least. High end makers may use different techniques to tune the board prior to putting it on but the general approach is known as the Chladni effect. The idea behind that is that the board will resonate in different nodes; one way of applying the test would be to scatter glitter over the board and tap it to see the pattern that creates. They would then tune the board by hand planing it.
The same could be done with more modern tools and instruments. I think Professor Kung mentions that in his lecture series.
Someone on the Harpmakers forum discussed the removable weight approach you mention – I think they used sticky putty – and that is also how amplifier pickups would ideally be placed. Tacye might remember who it was discussing that on the Harpmakers forum and know more about it – after all she is a physicist.
I can’t speak for others but personally I’ve never gone to that extent, not considering myself to be a “high end builder” LOL. Since I did not have a drying booth back then I was content with aircraft grade laminate. Or if I wanted to use solid wood, I bought a ready-made board from some one who did (grin).
Diverging a little….we know that Dusty uses mahogany for the first 3 1/2 octaves and spruce for the lower ones, due to their experience with mahogany on hammer dulcimers. I’ve often wondered whether they ever considered alder (which is plentiful here) and keep meaning to ask.
Biagio
Well well one tries and I admit that this got a little heated. I must be getting old and short of patience.
I agree Tacye, that given JS Moir’s background he would be happiest with an excellent harp (and an expensive one). One might ask however, why go into all the other harps mentioned (from Troubadour to Marini to Stoney End and so on) if he is studying with a teacher?
Just ask him or her – one who has a more intimate understanding of what might be suitable.
Biagio
1-“For harps, the big difference is the harpist: technique, finger and hand position, strength, “pulling or plucking,” status of calluses. I suppose most of the voicing by the builder is determined in the design phase if one discounts stringing changes custom to that one instrument.”
2 “I wonder if one can “voice” a soundboard after the harp is built to alter its resonance? ”
1 That is the point that my friend Laurie Riley often makes: however intentional the design how it actually performs depends on the player.
2 Not easily. In some instances one might remove one or more internal supports and/or add thin internal wood patches to emphasize some aspect such as overtones in some ranges. Generally that is not going to be done except on a shop prototype. Other things one might do while “proofing” a design might include covering string access holes, drilling large (3 inch+/- diameter) holes in the base, muffling to lower part of the SB to get an idea if it needs to be widened in the next iteration. I find that most of the issues especially with nylon lies in the upper registers. Often the builder has made that too thick. Tinkle tinkle little star….
It would be easier to just work with the strings if it is not a prototype. For instance, if more resonance is required one might go to heavier cores in the wound strings, and fluorocarbon in the monos. if less perhaps fiber core silver wound, and so on.
Now there’s an example where experience and experiment have no substitute.
Sometimes though one must just accept the fact that one needs to begin again and save what’s not salvageable for a nice comfy fire. Honestly, I don’t know any harp maker who has not done that:-)
Biagio
“The advantage I had was years of working with other instruments to know that it could be changed, and to not be scared by the process because I fully understood the physics involved.”
Exactly. I’ve revised string designs for any number of people who liked the size of their harp but wanted a different range or tone. It really is not all that intimidating.
I find that many are intimidated because they are under the impression that the mathematics are difficult, and/or think that whatever one buys cannot be changed. Some teachers, as well, do not understand those technical aspects of the instrument so of course neither will their students.
Another little understood fact is that many top makers are happy to do custom work.
Thanks to computers one no longer must grind through the calculation string by string; and the math is not really all that opaque if one has retained their high school algebra. I really do wish though that more makers would publish and if necessary explain the string statistics (vibrating length, tension, %tensile strength, tension/length, specific string composition). Same sort of thing goes for other design aspects: kind of sound board e.g.
I understand why they might wish not to but on the other hand a) it would go a long way to educating players and b) anyone who really wants to copy their design only needs a good tape measure and micrometer.
And so it goes.
BiagioThank you Charles for calming things down with those wise words. I really do wish that someone someday would write a book for players about how harps are designed and built and how different approaches produce different outcomes. That sort of information is either scattered over forums such as this…or else it will only be found on platforms directed at other harp makers.
I would add that a beginner might be best served if for some reason they cannot do that research, by purchasing one of the many good, but not concert quality harps. As we all also know, the harp and the player will “grow on each other” over time. If in the future the player finds it no longer suitable, if the harp is good quality it will be easy enough to sell. That in fact was my experience: after perhaps 8-10 years with nylon/gut strung harps I finally realized that it was the wire harp I actually liked best.
Incidentally for anyone else following this thread: “my” forum and several others do in fact vet prospective members before approving them for membership. They do this principally to weed out scammers or those who are merely interested in selling their product or gaining access to the forum files. But on occasion as well membership may be denied if a prospective member has a known reputation for being argumentative or even (in two cases I can recall) offensive.
Oh well,
Biagio
JS,
“Us” means those people who sincerely are trying to be helpful.
“To then seek to ‘put me in my place’ for noting same on your part, sir, is unwarranted in the extreme. And only confirms the point I was making, about vetting! As they say in the Godfather, Fuhgeddaboudit.”
Thank you, I will. If you are going to take that tone with people who are trying to help you, I can only suggest that you do the research yourself, or cool down and be grateful that anyone takes the trouble to try to help.
I was going to mention a forum specifically intended to help beginners. Given your tone, however, and speaking as one of the owners/moderators, you would not be accepted. We insist on courtesy and respect over there.
Biagio
Thank you Wil,
Here’s an anecdote:
I once was asked to make a custom double strung harp for a highly regarded player, who had very definite ideas about what she wanted (and no one made that commercially). I know her very well (in fact she was my teacher) – all the same we went through half a dozen iterations before she was satisfied. Trying different string types, taller or shorter profiles, etc. Take home lesson: even a very experienced player working with an experienced harp maker may well change her mind.
I’m not the only maker who has experienced this with her (or for that matter with other players), BTW. Hopefully this illustrates the point that EVEN IF THE PLAYER KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE OR SHE WANTS, conveying that may not be easy, even when the harp maker knows them very well.
Happy harping all,
BiagioJS,
“But you know, apart from that, it’s rather had to find such a wild beast (gut-strung in a herd of nylon-strung harps!”
Any nylon strung harp can be fitted with gut strings, if you (or a professional string maker) does an analysis for tension that the harp was designed for.
“I wasn’t aware that one needed to be ‘vetted’ on this forum, for an honest opinion to be made.”
I think you are taking umbrage out of misinterpreting Tacye’s comment. No one here “vetting” anyone. We all have our favorite harp models but the point to bear in mind is that we all have definite ideas which often may be very different from some one else. Speaking for myself, if I were asked to recommend only one or two specific harps, in good conscience and for the other’s benefit, I would need to know:
Have the person located and “vetted” a teacher
Preferred kinds of music
Preferred tension and type of strings
Preferred levers
Your height, arm length and hand size
Financial constraints if any
Preferred tone and sustain
Geographic location
…and probably some others that do not occur to me at the moment.If the person asking has not thought these things through members here, while more than happy to help (and Tacye is very helpful), could spend a lot of time trying to ferret out that information. So please, don’t be offended by Tacye’s remarks, and to be blunt, do not offend her or us by such comments. That is not very helpful for either.
If someone has not considered these questions for themselves and is not prepared to provide definite answers I will always tell them “first you should find a teacher, rent a harp until you and the teacher have a better understanding of what would suit you.” Failing that, go to as many harp gatherings as you can and try out as many as you can.
Alternatively, just buy the best harp that you can afford.
Best wishes,
BiagioJS,
Got here a little late and was editing while your latest was posting. But see my (edited) comment about the Magical Strings Oladion/Oran Mor – it’s a lot of harp for not too much moolah.
Haha, I too filled in some time as a real estate agent – my experience has been that many buyers have only a vague idea of what they want until the agent figures that out and shows it.
Biagio
