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Hi Balfour,
Yep, and I might note that the spacing between strings also increases from higher octaves to lower…not only due to the string diameters but for the very practical reason that longer strings, if not spaced wider apart, would potentially interfere with each other.
Greater length means greater flex for the same force of the pluck. For instance on my (just completed) 36 the width between the low C and D is 16mm inner edge to edge; two octaves higher it is 12mm.
People who really like to play in rapid Celtic sessions prefer narrower spacing, as it enables faster playing, especially ornaments. They seem to prefer nylon over gut too – I imagine that is because nylon lasts longer if using the nails, and has a brighter ring.
Whatever…gut seems to be preferred in Europe, nylon in the US. Perhaps someone knows why that is, I don’t. Other than guessing it may have something to do with tradition.
Happy Holidays All,
BiagioTo clarify a little since these terms often cause confusion: for the same note (frequency) and vibrating length, a “lever gut” string will have smaller diameter and hence lower mass than one rated “pedal gut”. Increase mass => increase tension. If the harps are otherwise the same, the spacing will differ by the differences in diameter. That will be more noticeable as you progress from treble to bass.
Biagio
Charles, the short answer is that those designed for “Celtic style” usually have less string tension and closer spacing than “pedal ” but these descriptions are somewhat less than rigorous. Tension rises from treble to bass on any harp so the average does too as you add more strings.
Spacing may be a matter of one or two millimeters difference; one might average 30 lbs. per string, the other 40. Harp makers would call a 36 lb. average “medium tension” for a 5 octave lever harp and that is perhaps a good all around size for a beginner with no orchestral ambitions.
In the case of these two harp models the difference is mainly tension which determines the force which you use to produce a good clear tone. Something like he Korrigan requires greater force (and along the way more blisters and callouses).
Any well made harp should be fine for a basic level beginner, the issue to my mind is how much you wish to spend and whether you intend to go on to a pedal harp. Your technique would be essentially the same on either.
Biagio
Needless to say there are costs associated with imported items, and labor and material costs may differ as well in different countries. Camacs are certainly excellent harps and they cost more in the US than they do in Europe for similar reasons.
I’d be more than happy with a Camac instead of a Dusty if I lived there. But I don’t so “Oh well” – the question was about the Ravenna, however. I do hope that does not sound snippy, it was not meant that way.
Biagio
“is the Ravenna really as good as the feedback seems to indicate? ”
Put it this way: there are very few harps in that price category that are even worth considering. I can count them on one hand: the Rees Grand Harpsicle, Musicmakers Voyageur kit, the (no longer made) Caswell Sweetharp, the Magical Strings Concert Oladion, perhaps one or two others I do not remember at the moment.
It is worth while asking why that is. Dusty came up with a labor-saving way of making a good harp that might more often be designed and made by an amateur with more standard methods. Consider the costs before labor of a good 34: levers $500, strings $200+, sound board (aircraft laminate) $120, hardware $100 – we are up to almost half the retail price before the wood for the frame and body, not to mention miscelaneous materials, tools and time needed in designing it. The latter may take two weeks or more.
I rest my case haha.
Some professionals choose the Ravenna for casual gigs, many recommend it to students either as a first harp of their own or keep a few for rentals. If I were looking for a “first harp” that is probably the one I would choose.
Biagio
Yeah. And to make things even more interesting there is the fact that even two harps of the same model may sound different, sometimes significantly, depending on the wood used. Just do not buy one that looks nice and is made poorly. Fortunately those are well known in the harp community.
It is helpful to have a teacher’s guidance but failing that, also instructive to consider the harps teachers often use for student rentals. Some of those often found in the US are the L&H Troubadour, Ravenna 34, Rubarth Merlin, Musicmakers Voyageur and Triplett Sierra.
Happy harp hunting:-)
Biagio
Edit (late): I misunderstood Balfour’s comment about “reversed winding” – I thought he meant the direction, rather than where they were in relation to the peg hole and neck. Whoopies!
That does bring up a difference though between the two makers. Dusty came up with pegs that are not tapered but straight and threaded; Triplett uses tapered ones that are similar to those on a pedal harp and most wire strungs. The DS pegs are easier to tune in that you don’t have to push to keep them firmly set in place. OTOH tapered pegs can be more finely tuned as they do not stick as the threaded ones sometimes do.
Sorry for the confusion but I think Balfour’s observation about both how the strings are wound and my own regarding the different kinds of pegs are relevant to you. Bottom line: Tripletts are good harps, so are Dustys, both makers have been in the biz a long time.
Happy harping whatever you choose!
Biagio
They do nice stringing, yes indeed. Did you notice that the Triplett has tapered pegs and the Dustys have their own threaded ones? The holes on Triplett’s pegs are set much further back. I kinda do not believe that after over 30 years of harp making Steve and Debbie would be sloppy; I’m sure they have a reason for how they do it.
Cheers to you too, my friend,
BiagioI could only see the wound strings Balfour, in particular those with metal, in the lever picture. No problem with that there is no need to cinch the peg winding but a good big reason to have those fall more or less directly to the pin to lessen the chance of kinking.
I did notice that the windings went past the peg though – that’s a no-no if one can avoid doing it. The monofilament string are wound as everyone else does: with a bight over the first one or two away from the neck and then cinched to the neck side. One can see that on some images of particular models.
Biagio
Edit (late): I misunderstood Balfour’s comment about “reversed winding” – I thought he meant the direction, rather than where they were in relation to the peg hole and neck. Whoopies!
“Now I’m really confused. If not the soundboard, then what most affects the tone?”
An excellent question and at the risk of getting into lecture mode, let’s start with how a harp is designed:
First we decide on some generalities – size range, how much sustain, what wood for the body and frame, the choice of strings for desired sustain, the depth and shape of the box, audible harmonics, and market (eg expense to the buyer). All will have an effect on the result, strings first in importance, sound board second assuming the harp is otherwise well made.
The very next thing is to design the string band; that comes first in the design process and first in how it will sound.
Second is the choice of sound board and that is also second most important in tone. Some use the laminate and if they are concientious will make the body a bit wider than if they used solid wood and double taper it just as they would a solid board. Not all are made with Elgelmann or Sitka spruce although those are traditional. Some use poplar (Rees) some basswood or mahogany like the pre-carbon fiber Heartlands or Dustys in some part of the range, etc.
But if a salesperson tells you that a laminate birch board will improve over time just like a solid wood board one of three things are possible: they do not know what they are talking about, they are misinformed, or they are trying to sell a particular harp. For more discussion on this topic and the debate among actual harp makers:
https://www.harpkit.com/blog/harp-soundboards-plywood-vs-solid-wood/
It’s great that you are doing this research!
Biagio
Introductroy does not in my book mean “cheap” – just not up to concert quality. It takes about twice or three times as long to make a solid wood sound board as it does to use the aircraft grade ply and fine grain tone wood is itself expensive. Truly “cheap” harps have been discussed here: for instance the Mikels. “Nuff said on that score
>As to the soundboard, I read here that the laminated ones will not mature; they will continue to sound as they do when made. Really? The people in the music store told me that part of the difference I was hearing is that the Crescendo and Una were new. <
Yes, really. As a harp frame settles the tone will change somewhat but that has little to do with the sound board. Lever choices are very much an individual preference.
There are excellent harps made with those ply boards – the Ravennas, Allegro/Crescendo, Boulding Oladion etc. There are both physical and biochemical changes that occur with solid wood over time under tension, which will not with 5 layers of thin (3mm) laminate.
On this issue one should ask IMHO “will I play mostly inside and in a concert setting”?
If so, spend more for the harp with the solid wood board. If not, and especially if often in ambient temps outdoors, probably better to go with the laminate, which will not react as much to temps and humidity
Biagio
Triplett makes excellent harps and has for a long time. The tone is (usually) quite different from the Dustys although of course much depends on the model and age. I not long ago played a 30 year old Axline (the harp often pictured on Sylvia Woods’ books) and it sounded incredible. That was made when sharping blades were still quite common so that gives you an idea both of how it matured and how well it lasted – it looked as robust as when it was made. Steve Triplett made the first large double strung that Laurie Riley had and she says it was the best double she ever had and still regrets selling it.
The Sierra series uses a birch ply sound board like other introductory harps such as the Ravennas and Crescendo. I’ve never played one but am told by those who have that it and other more recent harps from them have somewhat tighter stringing and less color that Dustys or Thormahlens.
The Crescendo and Ravenna 34 both have that birch ply board and use the same string design, so you are mostly paying more than the Ravenna for the cost of the wood body and how it looks. There may be some marginal difference in tone between the two but with apologies to my friends at Dusty not enough to justify the higher price for me. Others may feel differently:-)
If in some that Balfour has seen the peg windings are reversed, that would have been something the harp player did, possibly because the strings were slipping off the bridge pin. If that is the case it is not a good sign. It would mean that the string angle has changed, possibly as Balfour mentioned if the pillar has bent or the assembly has tilted.
Regarding levers: I accept that many people these days love Camacs, particularly those who often need to play accidentals and I have nothing against them (except from a makers standpoint -they are a real pain to mount accurately). I would not however personally forego a good deal on a harp with Lovelands, Rees or Truitts just because Camacs have become the recent favorite – especially if levers will mostly be used just to change keys.
My two cents,
BiagioI suppose one could say it is reasonable. Personally I would rather buy the Triplett Zephyr for about the same price. I can’t imagine why levers would be necessary if it is only for travel – they are extra cost on the Marini, Cs and Fs standard on the Zephyr.
Biagio
I agree that it would be best to take this to a harp luthier. Ingeneral…eyelets come in several different sizes and compositions, including stainless steel. On folk harps it is common to use brass.
If they are hard to get out it may be that the builder glued them in with Superglue. A drop of acetone will act as a solvent (aka nail polish remover) but be very careful of the finish.
Honestly, a wire strung is not too hard to make from scratch if one does not get all “traditional”: you know, hollowed out box, dry mortise and tenon, willow aged in a peat bog, faeries carving the wood only on nights with a new moon.
If one does not wish to go all the way nor buy one from
William MacDonald (who makes gorgeous clarseachs) or an Ardival, James Skeen at Folcharps makes excellent but “nontraditional” ones (ie not carved out box) at very reasonable cost. Alison here has one of his.After some prodding from yours truly he made at least one 26 with narrow spacing. A friend bought that and it is just fine, better than I could do. That admission comes hard, haha:-)
Biagio
