Double-strung harp saga

[balfour-knight]

Biagio, your thoughts and writings are worth a great deal, I think! Mae, thanks for the stringing update. I agree with Biagio about taking the strings on up to pitch right away. I have replaced strings and completely restrung many harps myself over the years, and have also completely rebuilt and restrung several pianos. With the piano, you are dealing with considerable more tension than with a harp, so there is a “formula” when pulling the new strings up to pitch, so that the metal plate, wooden bridges, soundboard, etc. won’t be damaged. It sounds like you are “playing it safe” by gradually putting tension on the little harp, which was good. I like to tune up all the C’s to pitch, then all the G’s, followed by the E’s, etc. Just space them out.

When you eventually need to replace these strings on the harp, you may take one off at a time and replace with a new one. I think that is the safest way to restring, and you constantly have to tune up the new strings behind you as you progress across the entire harp. That way, the “crown” of the soundboard stays intact, and the total tension on the harp is virtually not affected.

Thanks for letting all of us know how your project is progressing. I look forward to seeing the photos! Best of luck on getting the beautiful sound you expect from this special little harp!

[mae-mcallister]

Mmmm…food for thought. The main reason I’m taking it up slowly at the moment is that a) this harp has never had any tension on it before b) I’m keen to take the wrapped nylon strings up slowly but mostly c) I’m still missing two strings. Yesterday I ended up taking it half an octave below and today I’m hoping to put on both strings and take it all up to pitch…and then back up to pitch tomorrow…and then again the next day…obviously from now on if I change a string I’ll replace them one at a time and take it up to pitch asap.

At the moment it goes “twang”, but in a harpy way. Watch this space…

[balfour-knight]

I am eagerly watching this space, Mae! Hope your teacher brought the anchors and that you now have all the strings on your harp! I was just thinking today that String Trimmers (aka “weed eaters” here in the USA) have thick nylon in them for weed whacking, so some short pieces of that nylon, or heavy fishing line, might make good anchors in the future if you did not have enough. And, like you said, anchors can be used over and over, so you won’t have that problem when you go to restring this harp in a few years.

[mae-mcallister]

DRAMA:

Sorry for the lack of update, I’ve been too upset this last week to write about it…helpful, informative, and non-condescending advice welcome.

Good things first:
So firstly, my little harp is holding her pitch well. She’s dropping about half a semi-tone a day now and it’s getting easier and quicker to tune her. The G-side (i.e. the side that runs G-G) makes a beautiful sound. The string design is similar to the original Stoney end on that side with a few tweaks. The wound nylon/nylon strings on the C side that I ordered from VT are A DREAM. They sound AMAZING. The bass end is rich and full and incredible for such a small harp. They sound good, feel good, and are just good good. The C-C range on one side and G-G on the other is an EPIC idea, and took almost no time to get used to, and isn’t weird at all, and just falls under the fingers and works. I have epic bass strings where it counts, and a beautiful sounding RH that goes all the way up to the G. Heartily recommend this to any harp-marker. This is the ultimate compact travel harp and I don’t understand why it’s never been done. It’s not any less/more weird than having both sides strung in unison and it just works on so many levels. And for those interested, Stoney End sent me the correct string pretty pronto (without telling me:) so tick for customer services.

The bad stuff:
Firstly, one of my precious wound strings snapped. This is excruciatingly annoying as I a) ordered them special from VT and paying in dollars, shipping, customs, royal mail monopoly rip-off fee is a super-faff and now I have to do it all over again b) I wound them up soooo slowly and rubbed them and was soooo careful. The reason that it snapped was because the zither pin hole chewed it up at the top – the wrap is intact. Why the hell is my zither pin hole edge so sharp? NOT COOL. I noticed this on some of the others – I know there will always be a little bit of wear where the string bends round but some of the zither pins were actually scratching nylon off the strings as they went through the holes.

So, advice no. 1: What do I do? I thought the best thing to do would be to enlarge the hole and countersink it both sides like I did for the other one I had to enlarge. I’m obviously not going to take all the strings off, drill the holes out, and put them back, but I though it was worth doing one by one as I replace them in the future – primarily for the strings of .050 core. Thoughts?

Then there’s problem number 2, which is the biggest problem and the one that truly upset me: You may have noticed that I said that all the strings on the G side sound amazing, and the wound ones on the C side do too. What about all the other strings on the C side (which are nylon mono)?

Yeah, well. Something very interesting happened. In short, they sound sh*te. In long – they don’t make a bad sound per se, but they sure as hell don’t sound like harp strings. They sound like some kind of weird xylophone/vibraphone, like you’re listening to a harp underwater. Basically, their spectrum has no high frequency content whatsoever. They don’t sound twangy (they way low-tension strings sound), they sound woody. The lower they go, the worse they sound, but all of them sound super-weird in this way. If you were going for that effect, that would be cool, but they don’t sound anything like the rest of the harp and that’s not cool.

We did some tests to try and figure out why. In principle, the reason why is because they are too thick (DUH) but the question is why does this make them sound bad.

– We replaced a string with a gut one of the same tension and frequency (so it was correspondingly much thinner) and this made no difference to the sound whatsoever. Therefore the cause is probably not the fact that the strings are fat enough to be highly non-perfect and more like a bending beam, because a thinner string would have improved this.

– We replaced a string with a thinner nylon one (that was still thicker than the one on the G side) and tuned it to the same pitch (so lower tension, thinner gauge, same frequency), now it sounded twangy AND woody. Conclusion: the tension isn’t the problem either.

– We tuned it up to the same pitch on the G side (higher tension, thinner gauge (but still thicker than the G side), higher frequency), now it sounds fine. Conclusion – the problem is frequency-related.

– We cranked it up to the same tension (so high frequency, but still lower than the corresponding one on the G side) and that sounded fine. Conclusion – the bad sound isn’t caused by the fact that there is a different frequency string exciting the soundboard at that point from what was designed, because otherwise that string would have sounded bad regardless of thickness.

Overall conclusions – it doesn’t matter what gauge goes here, it’s going to sound bad. A thinner gauge needs a lower tension and will therefore be twangy as well as woody. A thicker string makes the woody problem worse. Therefore it’s probably something to do with the percentage tensile strength %TS, which is gauge independent and is dependent on frequency, length and material only. This further supported by the gut string experiment – even though it is much thinner, using gut only actually changes the %TS by about 2% (and KF by a further 1%). Essentially, what my harp is saying to me is this frequency is just too low for this length, and changing it for gut or KF is going to help you by sod all because at the end of the day, they are very similar materials.

Funnily enough, there’s nothing in Taylor’s eqn. nor in the tensile strength rule to suggest why: Taylor’s eqn doesn’t differentiate between short thick strings and long thin ones at the same tension and frequency because it assumes that all the strings are perfect and although the tensile strength percentage is really quite low for these strings (between 16-25%), the G side also has strings at this percentage (the lowest octave drops from 30-19%) and THEY sound fine. So for anyone thinking of saying “I told you so”, keep your trap shut please, because my other strings sound kick-ass at a %TS of 19%, so what the hell?! Now, I always knew that the lowest two (16/17%) had the very real possibility of sounding bad and was ready for that, but even the highest string is at 24% and that sounds just as woody, and it has a higher %TS than the bottom 4 strings of the G side.

SO my question number 2 is: From a scientific point of view, if the woody sound IS caused by a stupidly low TS%, why is it that a long string with a low TS% sound fine when a short one with the same TS% doesn’t? How does that come into the maths?

And the most important question: What the **** do I do about it? The best idea so far is: add more wound strings (which is why I haven’t yet ordered a replacement string for the one that snapped). n/n wrap adds weight so lowers the frequency but the tension only acts on the core, which effectively means that you are using a higher frequency string for the same length but magically make it lower frequency without affecting anything else. A preliminary play with numbers for the lowest of the woody strings shifts the %TS into the 40-50s. For the highest strings this isn’t possible but a) how often do you play them anyway b) they don’t sound quite as bad (further support for the low %TS theory) and c) a bit of KF might improve them further.

And this would be the totally obvious solution if I could actually buy n/n wrap in the UK. At the moment it’s looking cheaper if I get VT to send me the strings in 2/3 separate packages and pay postage 2/3 times rather than send it in one, pay the tax (which I don’t mind) and then pay the £8 f*** you handling fee (which I mind. A LOT. That’s about $12. Even if you get charged $1 in tax, you have to pay this fee. No tax, no fee.)

Can someone please set up a nylon winding service in the UK? Please? These strings sound AMAZEBALLS. F*** metal.

Before I do anything though, I am of course running it by all my trusty friends here. So, thoughts…?

Mae x

[wil-weten]

Hi Mae, what a nightmare you’re in now. I do hope someone knows a great solution for you.

As to nylon wound nylon harp strings. You may like to try and contact: http://www.harpen.nl/informatie.php?info_id=4 They make such (and some other) harp strings by themselves. I have no personal experience with them, but other harpers in the Netherlands say they are a fine shop and make good harp strings.

Anyway, this may be significantly cheaper than ordering and importing strings from the USA.

Use Google translate to translate the page. Most Dutch people are able to speak and read English.

I feel for you!

[Biagio]

Mae, sorry to read of the issues here! The first is easy, the second not so much. For the pin’s sharp edges, smooth them with abrasive cord. This stuff is rather like dental floss with carbide coating. I don’t know who specifically in the UK would stock this, most likely a machinist tool supplier. Alternatively a professional harp maker or repairer. I buy mine from Kolacny Music since I’m out in the sticks and know they have it.

“SO my question number 2 is: From a scientific point of view, if the woody sound IS caused by a stupidly low TS%, why is it that a long string with a low TS% sound fine when a short one with the same TS% doesn’t? How does that come into the maths?”

Here’s my guess:
It comes into the maths but the math gets more complicated and are not in the Taylor equation. If you could see the vibrating string in slow motion you would observe that it does not look like a two dimensional sine wave. Rather it is a circular motion with (ideally) the nodes, which are the harmonic points, remaining perfectly still. When a string is short with respect to it’s density (i.e. “low %TS”) those nodes are shifting side to side and up and down. They do in a longer string too but it is not as noticeable. We can try to solve that with somewhat higher tension. But we dropped the range a lot on that C side, and it sounds like just too much, if I’m right.

Unless it is all holding pitch well being still settling in could also be part of the problem since vibrations on one side will be picked up on the other and you can’t muffle them out – they’re going through the SB. If it’s only been a few tunings, keep going awhile and let the strings continue to stretch. Doubles sound horrible until they (finally!) stabilize – which can be several weeks.

Possibly unrelated: if I recall Gary uses just one inner rib with the strings spaced about 1″ apart side to side. That area is acoustically dead, so that C side may not be driving the SB surface sufficiently compared to the other side. Not much we can do about that I’m afraid.

I don’t have a print out of what are on it now, so that’s just my guess. In your shoes I’d give another call or email to VT Strings if it doesn’t settle down enough.

Well on the bright side, at least we know that the “G on side C the other” is sound in principle.

Biagio

[balfour-knight]

Fascinating, fascinating! Thanks for the updates. I certainly do not know all of your expert mathematical calculations, just what SOUNDS GOOD on a harp. I do know that taller harps with long strings sound better to me than short ones, just as longer grand pianos sound better than short ones. I had never thought too much about the math thing! (I have also found that some people cannot tell the difference in tone between one harp or piano and another!)

I agree that strings sound better after they have been on the harp for a while, and that the wood of the harp needs to get used to the vibrations. So, this harp may improve in the next few weeks on its own, let us hope.

Thanks, Mae, for keeping us informed. I am going to reply on my other forum, too.

[Biagio]

Honestly, I don’t know of any harp makers who actually go much beyond the Taylor equation (except one guy who is a acoustic physicist in Canada). Most have learned about this stuff by trial and error, and asking just the same sort of question! As long as we’re on the math topic though…

Recall that the harmonic curve is logarithmic and it begins to slope up sharply just a little past middle C. Therefore ideally string lengths would follow that curve. They don’t of course for reasons of practicality, but it does explain why a longer string may sound better than a shorter denser one for the same note and tension.

Natch there are constraints: I had to buy a soft case made for a 34 string in order to fit my 26!! But it was worth it to me to get the tone I want.

Biagio

[balfour-knight]

I sure hope the strings are settling in, Mae. Your idea about more nylon/nylon wrapped strings sounds good. They sound great on my Ravenna 34, and I have played Ravenna 26’s that also have a very full, singing tone. What Dusty has achieved on these small harps is amazing!

[mae-mcallister]

Thanks for the support everyone:)

Wil – GENIUS. If this works out you will be my favourite person ever. I emailed the dutch shop a couple of days ago and they still haven’t got back to me, fingers crossed though! If I can get them to make my strings this will be so much less hassle and cheaper and faster and easier on so many levels.

Biagio – why why why is all this stuff only available in the US? I found only two online shops that do abrasive cord (no real ones seem to!) and they sell them only in 15m reels. This is stupid. VT sent me a small piece (I did think of that first!) but it’s too big to go in the hole.
I tested one of your theories, I tightened up the tension on one of the crappy strings and it did seem to sound better.

Balfour – I can ALWAYS tell:) But I’m not going for a super-amazing sound, just a decent one. The maths is useful, it tells you WHY stuff does what it does, and gives you clues to what might also work. Harps this small are not supposed to go that low specifically because of stuff like this, yet a few wound strings makes the problem go away:)
Dusty ARE amazing. My big harp is a bubinga FH36 and I’ve never played a harp with a sound like it. It’s almost as tall as I am and yet it only goes down to 6C, making the bass end so epic. DS are onto a really good thing with these nylon wound strings (it was where I got the idea in the first place!) and I can’t believe that it hasn’t caught on and people are still (at least over here in the UK) winding with metal.

[Biagio]

Mae, I don’t know why there seem to be fewer resources in Europe than the US, but I suspect it has something to do with tradition and something to do with just how folk harps revived. In the US the revival got it’s boost in California in the 1970s during the “back to folk music” period. There were just a handful of young adventurous people who started to make harps and these names should ring a bell: Jay Witcher, Betty Truitt, Robbie Robinson and family (which include Joan and Phil Lamere at VT Strings), Ray and Sue Mooer (Dusty Strings), Mark Bolles (who owned Markwood Strings)….a vital core group who were also all musicians with many musician friends! As interest grew so did demand for more variations and support.

It is interesting to me that some of the famous names in Europe are also or primarily pedal harp makers: Camac, Pilgrim, Salvi, etc. We have L&H – owned by Salvi – and they only got into “real” folk harps recently, the Troubadour being the classic case of pedal envy.

Moving along…it’s true that a small harp with a low range is tricky to make out of a model intended for a higher range. But not impossible to design, just sort of a very specific one to get nice tone. Some have done that: Bob McNally and Dwight Blevins, for example and I have a design for a 26 with the lowest string a C2. Strings for something like that are very expensive. Dwight’s (and mine if I ever do it) are specifically meant for therapy music; pretty much a niche market. If I do it, though, it will be for fun to use up wood/hardware – and also the last harp I make:-)

Sorry for the ramble!

[wil-weten]

Hi Mae,
Trying to find a creative solution: I searched what abrasive cord is used for and I found: “They are ideal for finishing new wood spindles or stripping old furniture. Other uses include jewelry finishing & repairs, automotive applications, sewing machine maintenance, gunsmithing, plumbing and many more!”

So, are there people in your network working in one of these branches that may be willing to help you to the amount and kind of cord you need?

[Biagio]

Which is not to say that there are not plenty of harp makers in Europe (and elsewhere) that one could contact; see The Harp Lust List from Mike Nielsen:

http://www.weddingharper.com/harplust.html

I don’t know whether that community is as tightly knit as here. But you have to love harp makers, they freely share a lot of information. Said Robbie Robinson, “Each one teach one.”

[Allison Stevick]

I just want to say (again?) that I really love the conversation going on here, and I’m learning a lot!

Mae- I hope you get all the strings sounding good soon! I can’t wait till you can play it and give us some sound samples (do you think you will do that once it settles in?) 🙂

I’m still intrigued by the different string setup, AND will be receiving my own double brittany ITW in a couple months! (Thanks to a rather extravagant and unexpected Christmas gift–thank you, Grandma!) I’m not 100% sure if I will do the lower range (leaning towards it for now), or just go with what it already has, but I’m extremely excited and will post about it in a separate thread when the time comes.

Thanks, everyone, for all the good info!

[balfour-knight]

Hi, Mae and all!

I was remembering that my dad used to use a nice set of jeweler’s files to remove burrs such as you have in the holes of those zither pins. One file was round, slender and tapered and would work quite nicely, I imagine.

Oh, and that Bubinga Dusty FH 36 is a DREAM HARP! I have played them at the Atlanta Harp Center and drooled!

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