Double-strung harp saga

[Biagio]

oops we have a formatting problem: those two FC strings are in millimeters (ignore the .032, that would be for nylon but I rejected that for those two strings).

[Biagio]

OK here we go…C-C:

0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
1.08 Carbon
1.16 Carbon
1.25 Carbon
1.36 Carbon
1.40 Carbon
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 8 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 12 Copper 0.005

D-D

6 0.032 Nylon
6 2/7 0.032 Nylon
7 0.032 Nylon
7 1/2 0.032 Nylon
7 7/8 0.032 Nylon
8 1/4 0.032 Nylon
9 0.036 Nylon
9 1/2 0.040 Nylon
10 1/4 0.84 Carbon
11 0.91 Carbon
11 5/6 0.91 Carbon
12 3/5 1.01 Carbon
13 2/5 1.08 Carbon
14 1/6 1.08 Carbon
15 1.16 Carbon
16 1/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
17 1/3 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
18 1/2 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
19 2/3 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
21 2/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
22 6/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
24 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005

E-E

0.028 Nylon
0.028 Nylon
0.028 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.050 Nylon
0.050 Nylon
0.055 Nylon
0.060 Nylon
0.060 Nylon
1.32 Carbon
0.014 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005

[Tacye]

I expect wound strings nowadays to come with ends, but have taken some old soft core ones off harps which had knots tied, which might help cut your cost.

[mae-mcallister]

This is a joke. I can’t believe that as well as there being no commercial double-strung harps this side of the Atlantic, there is also no one who does nylon winds. I agree that sfc is not going to sound…well, good. I emailed Morley and they also suggested nylon wind…on nylon….I have to say I have a few of those strings on my big harp and they are wonderful. There is also a certain beauty (both aesthetic and soundwise) in not having any metal. Morley suggested buying nylon wound strings from them and unwinding the wind until it’s the right length but instinct tells my that trying to strip the wind on a string is a REALLY REALLY bad idea.

Plus, nn is cheap, relatively, so MAYBE I am considering importing them from VT strings. (I still can’t believe I have to order a harp, strings AND levers separately from the USA…) The import duty sucks bad and makes it prohibitive sometimes (tax on the kit was about a quarter of the price of the harp…) But nn…might be doable. It’s only $4.50 a string.

Biagio, if you’re not totally bored of this already, can you rerun the three this time using nylon mono, and nn, with kf instead of nn if possible? (Or you could send me your program and I can have a play? I’ve got my own spreadsheets but working with compensation for fibre is boring and so is working back from tension to find the gauge for winds. It occurs to me to maybe not to re-invent the wheel…)

If I think of a good way of doing acknowledgements on a harp (sticker in the back maybe?) you will definitely be on it.

[Biagio]

Hi Mae,

Below is what I come up with at C-C tuning with N, NN and SFC. I use an Excel spreadsheet usually which is free from Music Makers, here’s the link:
http://www.harpkit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MK&Category_Code=lib_stringanalysis

It’s a good idea to try to keep tension on the SB close to what Gary designed it for – the result of course is rather fat strings which will not be very beautiful. But this will work and of course you can load it into the MM worksheet, and use it as a basis to play around with a different range.

Consider this all a learning experience! I wish more players would go to the effort of understanding design issues as much. It would really help them in evaluating (for example) as used instrument on eBay:-)

I realize it is much to late to mention this, but I made seven double strung 23s for Laurie Riley’s retreat last year – range G below middle C up to a. Not that hard to do really, we’re not talking gorgeous tone. I call them the 2x equivalent to a Harpsicle:-)

0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.008
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.015
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.015
0.014 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.018 Steel 8 Copper 0.005

[Biagio]

PS The D-D and E-E versions would not change so I just left them as in the previous post. On the D-D obviously I cut an pasted the string lengths too – whoops!

[Biagio]

Double PS: I know that Robin Ward makes doubles and he’s in the UK last time I looked:

http://www.robin-ward.com/

I think that the makers of doubles found that they could not get the profit margins on doubles that they could on singles so they really did not “push” them: workshops, retreats, etc. It still puzzles me though that players have not in general seen the advantages, there seems to be an impression that doubles are hard to learn. I’ve only been seriously studying playing for a couple of years but they don’t seem that hard to me. Especially when compared to a cross or a wire strung!

But then I’ve been more into design until recently:-) Now that I’ve discovered the beauty of the wire harp – no more building!

[mae-mcallister]

Biagio – I’ve been reverse-engineering gauges from the tension which each string would have had if it was strung as designed as I had the same thought:) Thanks for the program, I will have a mess around with it, although I might use it for inspiration to improve my own spreadsheet (NEVER catch me working in psi..:P)

I find it weird that there is so little demand for doubles – to me they are the ultimate travel harp: small enough to fly with, but with enough strings to practice unhindered. PLUS you can do cool counterpoint stuff. PLUS PLUS you can flip all the levers on one side and make them chromatic. For those of you wondering why I didn’t just get a bigger harp, or stick with the designed range, this is why. Its ultimate purpose is to mimic my big harp on a small compact scale. If a few wound strings can fix the range thing, then why not.

In other news, I have so far found that with 5 nn strings + 4 KF each side, I can get it to D-D with exactly the same tension as the G version, and acceptable feels and tensile strengths, the worst one matching the bottom C of the Bardic, which I found surprisingly acceptable. It really all depends on how much VT strings charges for shipping…

And for the record, harpsicles – ew. I think I found them mostly offensive because of the ridiculously low feel (I nicked some measurements off one of those too…)

NEXT POST THERE WILL BE PICTURES I PROMISE.

[Biagio]

I have to admit, although the Rees’ are friends, that the Harpsicles fail to charm. After a good deal of constructive comment though, they do now offer better bass tension with NN. I suggested FC as well but the (logical) response was “Not really worth it on a model like this.” On the other hand, their doubles are the best out there IMHO.

My retreat harps were designed specifically as rentals for the retreat; but I did make one higher end. As you now know, string design is where it starts: with a good design there upgrading the box and SB takes an “OK for travel” to a really nice instrument (which in fact I did on one). That’s one of the “secrets” – when makers consider a new design they do a less expensive prototype to to tweak:-)

You end up paying a lot for a 2x mostly because of levers: Lovelands cost makers much less than Camacs or Truitts but they take twice as long to mount. So most makers charge almost as much. Personally I’ve never seen the merit on a small harp – heck, just learn to transpose or get at most Fs Cs and maybe Gs or Bs!

I came up with a “travel 19 double” with C below middle C on one side and G below middle C on the other (so each pair is a fifth apart) and I know it would sound great. However, Laurie said she would have to completely re-orient her playing for that so I haven’t done one (and probably won’t unless I get super bored).

Still, to my way of thinking so what? I mean, if the idea is a lot of harp in a small space that’s over 3 octaves in something just about 36″x14″x10″.

Oh well. Might do one for myself:-)

[Tacye]

Savarez do do wound nylons, but you have to look away from the harp pages. You might find it interesting to investigate tape wound guitar strings and see where that leads you.

[Biagio]

They (Savarez) do indeed sell wound strings but unfortunately (as is also true for Piastro, Bow Brand, etc) they do not tell you much beyond the intended use – e.g 6th octave (harp) X, guitar Y, double bass Z. This is not very useful to a lever harp designer, alas. As this thread has shown, we want to know composition (specifically core, bedding if any, winding type etc.) and vibrating length as well. Otherwise we pool resources, buy a bunch and compare notes (sorry, bad pun, but that’s what we do).

As the late Chris Caswell once observed, lever harp makers are at the bottom of the totem pole for instrument string makers. The harp standard was set for pedal instruments and that’s what many still use. And you still find teachers who tell their students “Never put gut on a harp designed for nylon.” What they mean (I hope!) is “Don’t use gut of the same gauge.” But you’re still going to be stuck asking “What does Bow Brand lever gut 3rd octave C actually mean?” Thanks to the tight luthier community we know, but try asking a string maker that. Some will tell you, some will not.

Interlude: Going back a bit earlier in the thread, you can perform surgery on a nylon wound string if it is long enough; here’s how. Coat the windings with “superglue” (CVA) about 1-2 inches inches below the intended vibrating length. Then peel off the windings above, tie a clove hitch – more CVA. Snip off the excess core to leave yourself 5-6 inches for ease in stringing.

Sometimes we find a “deal” such as a fishing tackle store going out of business and unloading their stock of fluorocarbon leaders. Yippee but we have to translate between “pound test” and millimeter. And so on.

I think I’ve rambled on much too long now – sorry!

Biagio

[wil-weten]

Hi Biagio, you wrote “They (Savarez) do indeed sell wound strings but unfortunately (as is also true for Piastro, Bow Brand, etc) they do not tell you much beyond the intended use – e.g 6th octave (harp) ”

I’ve got positive experience with the email helpdesk of Savarez (I put a link to their contact page somewhere in the thread above), so, when you want to know something, just mail them in English.

[Tacye]

I have found it interesting to scrounge string ends and old strings from other players – harp and other instrumentalists.

You need to doo a bit of maths and add string lengths, but these may help work out if any instrument is particularly worth scrounging from.

http://daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
http://www.orchestral.daddario.com/orchestralTensionCharts.page

[Biagio]

Wil, I imagine that response time depends on who get’s the query and how busy they are – I’ve always received and answer eventually (except from Pirastro for some reason). Lyon and Healy/Salvi are terrific on any question I’ve ever had on any subject.

If I’m in a hurry though I can almost always get the answer I need from another luthier, especially one who specializes in repair.

Some makers consider their string designs to be proprietary and one can understand why: that’s easily 90% of the total design time. One can also understand why folks like Dusty Strings have their own string winding machines!

Interesting side note since I’m babbling away: Melville Clark is the guy responsible for getting Dupont to make nylon instrument strings. Over 60 years ago for his “Irish Harp.”

Biagio

[Allison Stevick]

Can I just say that I’m completely reveling in all the info coming out in this thread?!

Mae- THANK YOU for undertaking this project and sharing it with us!! I may be a little weird, but I now make sure I check this thread on a Monday, just in case the weekend brought more pics. 😉

Thank you to everyone else for all of your input, too!

I’m seriously considering a double kit or ITW in the future, and I prefer a lower range as well, so this has been totally ideal for me and my lap harp dreams.

[Author]

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