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Charles- Thanks for the math! After my last post, I thought of perhaps another way of approaching this. How about calculating the total string length off the measured distance from flat to natural, as I wrote in the post. But then, instead of calculating the string length from natural to the soundboard, calculate the total string length based on the distance from flat to sharp. In other words, calculate the total string length based on two measurements: the action’s distance from flat to natural, and it’s distance from flat to sharp. In both calculations the final numbers should be the same. If they are not, or if they are off slightly, that would tell me that the distance between natural and sharp position on the action is off. So for that kind of calculation, what are the numbers I need to use to calculate off a whole step distance(flat to sharp)?
Your statement about a soundboard that is “bellied up” is correct, in theory. In practice, I’ve usually found that, even on a badly “bellied up” soundboard, the longest strings, i.e., the wires, are rarely very far off. So there is I believe a fair amount of leeway on the overall string length where it just won’t make that much difference. I’m going to venture a guess that the overall length of a wire string could be off by as much as 1/8 inch (and possibly more!) and not significantly effect the pitch. So on an instrument like I originally mentioned, where the wires were almost 1/4 step flat, the string lengths must be off by a lot.
This is reinforced by the fact that, when I regulate a harp, changing a disc to a larger or smaller disc to correct the regulation, especially in sharp position, is really only effective, at most, in the top 3 octaves. Below that, the string lengths are simply too long to be able to alter the pitch with a larger or smaller disc.
What I would like to do at this point is take some measurements (flat to natural, natural to sharp, and flat to the soundboard) of the wire strings on 3 or 4 of my 23’s, on which the wires are well regulated. Then I want to do some calculations on those same distances and see what the calculation says the length ought to be. In other words, how much of a difference is there between the theoretical length, and the actual length?
I knew I could count on you two!! Thank you both. I’m going to have to print this out and get my partner, who is an MIT graduate, to explain it to me. I’m a total dunce for these kinds of things.
I actually didn’t ask for lever harp installation. I’m going to have to do some major repair work on a pedal harp make that was often inconsistent in critical dimensions. Over the years I’ve regulated them and occasionally found that whole sections of the instrument were un-regulateable, especially the wire strings. Often, that whole area was way flat, and there was nothing I could do to fix it. I’m putting a new soundboard on this harp, and I want some formula to try to figure out what the string lengths should be down there so that the half steps are at least in the ball park. I can alter the height of the column ring if I have to to make corrections. But I want some kind of formula to show what those lengths should be. I’m also going to take some measurements off several harps that I have where the lengths are correct, and use those measurements to compare this instrument to.
I know that the formulas you put forth are correct in theory, but may not be in actual practice, at least not over the whole instrument. They are probably most correct in the lower strings. Down there, the string lengths are so long, and the added tension of the closed disc so insignificant that the formulas are probably correct. But as you go higher on the instrument, the tension added by the closed disc has more impact, and so the distances calculated by these formulas would have to be modified to accommodate that. But thank you both. This gives me something to start with.
Here is the same question from a different standpoint: Let’s say I’m trying to calculate the string lengths needed from 5th octave C to 7th octave E, which is all the strings with stationary nuts (i.e., not adjustable at all). If I know the distance from the point on the stationary nut where the string touches (i.e.flat position) to the lower prong of the natural disc, how do I use that number to calculate what the full string length should be? I could then measure the distance from the lower prong of the natural disc(i.e., natural position) to the lower prong of the sharp disc, and do the same calculation, which would tell me what the string length should be from natural position to the soundboard. If that calculation did not jive exactly with the measurement from flat position, I would know that I have to slightly compromise on the string length to get natural and sharp positions at least in the ball park.
I seem to remember that the percentage number was something like 6.something,something,something. But I just don’t remember.
William,
If you send me your email address (privately) I’ll put you on my email list, and you’ll get the notice when it’s available.
I believe there are sample pages of each edition up on my web site. My newest edition, a transcription for solo harp of Ravel’s Mother Goose, is due to be released any day. I transcribed all 5 pieces, and the one that nearly killed me was Beauty and the Beast. But it’s gorgeous on the harp, as are the other movements.
William,
I’ve had to do so much of this with my editions published by Carl Fischer Music. I frequently have to re-notate a passage or a measure to show as clearly as possible how it needs to be played. I frequently try several solutions and then use the one that instantly conveys all of the information needed.
In this particular case, all three of the solutions (from wil-weten, me, and your last solution) convey the necessary information. I do prefer mine for its simplicity and directness.
I like wil-weten’s solution. A slightly different solution would be to start with your second version, and add down stems to the three notes to be played with the left hand. Those 3 notes would have double stems: up, to show they are part of a group of 9 notes, and down, to show they are played by the left hand.
I would suggest you get this book. Read aloud the notes in the first exercise until you can name them easily. Then play those same notes on the harp. When you can do that with no problem (no hesitation, no “calculating or counting up or down to get the note), then go on to the second exercise and do the same thing. The goal is to instantly recognize the written note without any need to measure or count from someplace else, and to instantly know which string that is on the harp.
You may possibly have some bad reading habits that you will need to break to make big progress. That’s OK. These exercises will help you to do that.
The principal reason that 7th octave C and D have never had discs on them is that both strings are almost on top of the main action. The link from the main action to C and D would be too short to hook up to an action arm. But also, both strings have little to no pitch to them because of the length and the fact that the tension is so loose. I have special gauge strings made for the last 5 strings (6th octave G and F, and seventh octave E, D, and C. The gauge that I have them made to is the diameter that they should be. Because they are thicker, they have a much better sound, and are less prone to banging into each other in the middle of the string.
If Venus had discs on the low C and D, I suspect that they simply restrung the instrument so that 7th octave C and D were in the position that 7th octave E would have been. They did not add mechanism to the instrument.
Marcel Tournier set 5 songs for voice and harp. Only one of them, le lettre du jardiniere (The Gardner’s letter) has been available consistantly since it was first issued. The others were available for a short time in the 1930’s to the 1950’s, but then disappeared. Tournier went back to 4 of the songs years after he wrote them and added string quartet parts. I have found two of the songs that he wrote string parts for (Le letter du jardininiere, and Reverie du Bouddha). They are both drop-dead gorgeous. I found the one song that he did not add string part to (le lettre d’enfant à Noel). I’m still looking for the last 2 songs: Elle est venue… Ella as souri, and Insomnie. If anyone knows where they are, or has copies, please contact me. I’m hoping eventually to publish an edition of all 5 songs.
I just tried to upload a sound file of the Gardener’s letter, but it seems to be too big. If you want to hear it, send me a private email and I will send you the file to listen to.
I couldn’t count the number of old pedal harps that I have bought over the years that were in exactly the situation you describe. First, most of the nylon and gut strings would be broken: the guts because they dried out, the nylons because nylon gets brittle with age. The wire strings would still be under some tension, but probably not full tension. Because of this, the soundboard could be bellied up at the lower end (because of the wire string tension). The tuning pins could be rusted and frozen in place, and would have to be removed by hammering them out. The finish would deteriorate and look dirty. But it’s partly dirt, and partly oxidation to the surface. Wood joints would likely have opened up in some places because of the wild swings in humidity and temperature. On a pedal harp in this situation, the action would be almost black, and would work slowly, like a freight elevator, or not at all. Any gilding would be darkened considerably, and very likely would be deteriorating because the gesso would be turning to powder or cracking and falling off. It would not be unusual for the neck to break or the soundboard to rip open, or start separating from the body on one side or the other.
Alison,
The conductor’s score to this day has the chromatic harp part, not the Renie transcription in it. Occasionally the conductor will question the harpist as to why the discrepancy between what he is seeing and what he is hearing.
It’s very difficult to rationalize the debt of a 4 year music degree these days. I have told good students of mine that if they simply want to play gigs and even freelance, then go to college for something non-musical that 1) you enjoy, and 2) offers the prospect of making an acceptable living. That way, you get to pick and choose what you want to perform, without being dependent totally on income from playing.
Having said that, what you are asking is dependent on several things. You need to answer these honestly, and even get a good harp teacher to answer some of them too.
1) Do you have any talent for the harp, or music in general? You don’t have to be a prodigy, but there are lots of people who enjoy playing an instrument who, in reality, are terrible.
2) Along with question number 1, do you have standards of precision and excellence that will allow you to play at a high level if you work hard enough? Again, many amateurs are terrible because they completely lack the drive to perfect what they are working on. They are perfectly happy to slaughter the same piece for 8 months or more without ever improving it.
If you can realistically say that you have sufficient natural talent and drive to play well, then you have to develop a program for yourself that will improve all of the skills needed to perform in public. First and foremost, you need a good harp teacher. Not a nice teacher that you really like, not a teacher who is a good friend, but a teacher who can and will build a good technique and bring you in a logical way into more and more difficult repertoire. In addition, you will have to study music theory (a lot) to improve your reading skills and your understanding of the music. You should also be very familiar with music history and the music and its context for each period of music. You’ll play with much more intelligence and understanding with that kind of knowledge. Most importantly, you need to listen to tons of music from different periods to develop your musical understanding and interpretation.
