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Wil, I imagine that response time depends on who get’s the query and how busy they are – I’ve always received and answer eventually (except from Pirastro for some reason). Lyon and Healy/Salvi are terrific on any question I’ve ever had on any subject.
If I’m in a hurry though I can almost always get the answer I need from another luthier, especially one who specializes in repair.
Some makers consider their string designs to be proprietary and one can understand why: that’s easily 90% of the total design time. One can also understand why folks like Dusty Strings have their own string winding machines!
Interesting side note since I’m babbling away: Melville Clark is the guy responsible for getting Dupont to make nylon instrument strings. Over 60 years ago for his “Irish Harp.”
Biagio
They (Savarez) do indeed sell wound strings but unfortunately (as is also true for Piastro, Bow Brand, etc) they do not tell you much beyond the intended use – e.g 6th octave (harp) X, guitar Y, double bass Z. This is not very useful to a lever harp designer, alas. As this thread has shown, we want to know composition (specifically core, bedding if any, winding type etc.) and vibrating length as well. Otherwise we pool resources, buy a bunch and compare notes (sorry, bad pun, but that’s what we do).
As the late Chris Caswell once observed, lever harp makers are at the bottom of the totem pole for instrument string makers. The harp standard was set for pedal instruments and that’s what many still use. And you still find teachers who tell their students “Never put gut on a harp designed for nylon.” What they mean (I hope!) is “Don’t use gut of the same gauge.” But you’re still going to be stuck asking “What does Bow Brand lever gut 3rd octave C actually mean?” Thanks to the tight luthier community we know, but try asking a string maker that. Some will tell you, some will not.
Interlude: Going back a bit earlier in the thread, you can perform surgery on a nylon wound string if it is long enough; here’s how. Coat the windings with “superglue” (CVA) about 1-2 inches inches below the intended vibrating length. Then peel off the windings above, tie a clove hitch – more CVA. Snip off the excess core to leave yourself 5-6 inches for ease in stringing.
Sometimes we find a “deal” such as a fishing tackle store going out of business and unloading their stock of fluorocarbon leaders. Yippee but we have to translate between “pound test” and millimeter. And so on.
I think I’ve rambled on much too long now – sorry!
Biagio
I have to admit, although the Rees’ are friends, that the Harpsicles fail to charm. After a good deal of constructive comment though, they do now offer better bass tension with NN. I suggested FC as well but the (logical) response was “Not really worth it on a model like this.” On the other hand, their doubles are the best out there IMHO.
My retreat harps were designed specifically as rentals for the retreat; but I did make one higher end. As you now know, string design is where it starts: with a good design there upgrading the box and SB takes an “OK for travel” to a really nice instrument (which in fact I did on one). That’s one of the “secrets” – when makers consider a new design they do a less expensive prototype to to tweak:-)
You end up paying a lot for a 2x mostly because of levers: Lovelands cost makers much less than Camacs or Truitts but they take twice as long to mount. So most makers charge almost as much. Personally I’ve never seen the merit on a small harp – heck, just learn to transpose or get at most Fs Cs and maybe Gs or Bs!
I came up with a “travel 19 double” with C below middle C on one side and G below middle C on the other (so each pair is a fifth apart) and I know it would sound great. However, Laurie said she would have to completely re-orient her playing for that so I haven’t done one (and probably won’t unless I get super bored).
Still, to my way of thinking so what? I mean, if the idea is a lot of harp in a small space that’s over 3 octaves in something just about 36″x14″x10″.
Oh well. Might do one for myself:-)
Double PS: I know that Robin Ward makes doubles and he’s in the UK last time I looked:
I think that the makers of doubles found that they could not get the profit margins on doubles that they could on singles so they really did not “push” them: workshops, retreats, etc. It still puzzles me though that players have not in general seen the advantages, there seems to be an impression that doubles are hard to learn. I’ve only been seriously studying playing for a couple of years but they don’t seem that hard to me. Especially when compared to a cross or a wire strung!
But then I’ve been more into design until recently:-) Now that I’ve discovered the beauty of the wire harp – no more building!
PS The D-D and E-E versions would not change so I just left them as in the previous post. On the D-D obviously I cut an pasted the string lengths too – whoops!
Hi Mae,
Below is what I come up with at C-C tuning with N, NN and SFC. I use an Excel spreadsheet usually which is free from Music Makers, here’s the link:
http://www.harpkit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MK&Category_Code=lib_stringanalysisIt’s a good idea to try to keep tension on the SB close to what Gary designed it for – the result of course is rather fat strings which will not be very beautiful. But this will work and of course you can load it into the MM worksheet, and use it as a basis to play around with a different range.
Consider this all a learning experience! I wish more players would go to the effort of understanding design issues as much. It would really help them in evaluating (for example) as used instrument on eBay:-)
I realize it is much to late to mention this, but I made seven double strung 23s for Laurie Riley’s retreat last year – range G below middle C up to a. Not that hard to do really, we’re not talking gorgeous tone. I call them the 2x equivalent to a Harpsicle:-)
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.008
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.015
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.015
0.014 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.018 Steel 8 Copper 0.005I forgot to address the storage question (I live in an earthquake area also). Aside from laying it on it’s back, the next best option is to stand it in a corner. The Ravenna comes with optional stand or drop down leg – if you did not get the stand you might consider one.
Have fun!
Congratulations Janis! I often suggest that Ravenna 34 for people just beginning. I often suggest a number of books and aides. Sylvia’s book is fine but it does not have a lot of information on technique and goes pretty quickly, so here are some others to consider:
Pam Bruner “Play the Harp Beautifully” Vols. 1 & 2 including DVDs
Maria Grossi “Metoda per Arpa”*
Yolanda Kondonassis “On Playing the Harp”*
*Although written for pedal harp most is transferable and the photos are excellent.Also very useful:
Laurie Riley “The Harpers Manual”
David Kolacny “Troubleshooting Your Lever Harp”In addition to Josh Layne, Laurie also teaches via Skype and of course there are more, those are just the two I happen to know personally.
Biagio
OK here we go…C-C:
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
1.08 Carbon
1.16 Carbon
1.25 Carbon
1.36 Carbon
1.40 Carbon
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 8 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 12 Copper 0.005D-D
6 0.032 Nylon
6 2/7 0.032 Nylon
7 0.032 Nylon
7 1/2 0.032 Nylon
7 7/8 0.032 Nylon
8 1/4 0.032 Nylon
9 0.036 Nylon
9 1/2 0.040 Nylon
10 1/4 0.84 Carbon
11 0.91 Carbon
11 5/6 0.91 Carbon
12 3/5 1.01 Carbon
13 2/5 1.08 Carbon
14 1/6 1.08 Carbon
15 1.16 Carbon
16 1/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
17 1/3 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
18 1/2 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
19 2/3 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
21 2/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
22 6/7 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
24 0.016 Steel 6 Copper 0.005E-E
0.028 Nylon
0.028 Nylon
0.028 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.045 Nylon
0.050 Nylon
0.050 Nylon
0.055 Nylon
0.060 Nylon
0.060 Nylon
1.32 Carbon
0.014 Steel 4 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005
0.014 Steel 6 Copper 0.005oops we have a formatting problem: those two FC strings are in millimeters (ignore the .032, that would be for nylon but I rejected that for those two strings).
Hi Mae,
I’m happy to take a gander at these options but first a question: would you consider a US source for the wound strings? I’m sure you realize after all that number crunching you are going to end up with some wound strings. IMHO copper over fiber bed steel will sound yucko – nylon wrap would be vastly preferable. You can order those from Vermont Strings as one of my Italian friends does. For now, here’s what I come up with for C-C tuning; you read this as core gauge, core material, #bedding fibers, wrap material, wrap gauge:
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.032 Nylon
0.036 Nylon
0.040 Nylon
0.032 0.84 Carbon
0.032 0.91 Carbon
0.032 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.01
0.036 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.040 Nylon Nylon 0.013
0.016 Steel 10 Nylon 0.01
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.013
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.015
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.015
0.018 Steel 10 Nylon 0.015
0.018 Steel 12 Nylon 0.015OK now I understand Tacye. If one is happy with the tone, and transition from the upper register strings sure, why not?
I can say however, having once (only once!) made a metal double strung that it sounds horrible. My neighbors didn’t know whether to call the police or heave a boot over the fence at it.
I can’t figure out how to attach files here – help!!!
Grins,
BiagioHi Mae (and Tacye),
For fibre I use diameter per thread of 0.011″, density 0.0412 lb/cubic inch, tensile strength 52,000 lb/square inch (sorry for the imperial units, it’s how my program is set up). These may vary somewhat depending on your string maker. There has been an ongoing “discussion” for over 30 years among makers over how much to assume for compression as bedding. Personally I don’t worry about the latter.
I came up with three different variations using my 2×23 as a surrogate and will send them to you off list.
WRT Tacye’s question: a thin metal core (say 0.018″) with heavy fibre bedding and nylon wrap will be only slightly stiffer than nylon core, much thinner, and with usually better acoustic and tensile characteristics. In this instance I’d probably use steel rather than bronze core but up to you. A metal wrap will of course sound – well, metallic:-)
More anon,
Biagio
