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I’m finding this thread fascinating, although not a pedal harpist. WRT to lever harps let me add that is is not only the time needed for strings to stretch in. Knots must tighten up, if a number of strings have been replaced the rest of the harp must readjust, one may find that the string angle has changed slightly….until the harp is again stable, one cannot be sure that lever regulation is dead on.
Biagio
I think you might ask Dr. Alfredo Orland Ortiz for an expert opinion:
https://www.alfredo-rolando-ortiz.com/
He is a perfectly lovely gentleman. As for the description of wood tone, what they provided seems accurate but every harp is different, as Wil mentioned. Gotoh machines are excellent and if it is a question of cost I would forego carvings etc. Turned pillars are pretty standard for such harps.
Enjoy!
Biagio
It’s interesting to consider different building techniques, and these ancient clarsachs especially, with respect to ancient and modern tools available. For instance, as Hearpe noted, the box was carved out of single slab – Why, I would hazard, because the glues available back then were pretty limited, By the same token we might ask, “Why did they add brass cheeks to the neck?” Well, OK for strength maybe but it would be stronger to put a brass strip underneath. However, they did not have routers which would make that easy, just chisels and planes.
I’m inclined to think, however, that these cheeks gave a better grip to the pegs, which were irregular – no precise modern machining. How about the enclosed back? It would have been a lot easier to brace the body that way, and when you study the acoustics, putting sound holes in front provides better projection – adding access holes in the back negates that somewhat.
This is not to say that Hearpe or another is wrong to consider different approaches of course! It is definitely easier to make a four-part body than spend a year carving and aging a 3″ thick chunk of willow, alder, or
whatever!If interested in actually making one of these, it is not difficult IF you understand certain things that make a brass strung harp unique: tensile strength and density, narrow versus “standard” spacing, why we use a relatively thick hardwood board and why we usually do not add bridge pins.
The wire strung harp website is great for all of this and more: if you can, also read Karen Loomis’ and Simon Chadwick’s in-depth analyses of the Queen Mary and Lamont harps.
All very interesting!
BiagioWound strings of course, must be ordered, but with monofilament nylon it might be sensible to order the sizes you need in bulk rolls. Then you will have a lifetime’s supply for only a little more than the cost of one cut-to-length set. Sure, you would have to dye the Cs and Fs but that is also very easy.
There are several ways to dye nylon strings: I find the easiest is to just mix up a batch of Rit fabric dye in a slow cooker set to High (use the commercial grade for red), with a tablespoon of salt as a fixative. Drop in the strings and go away for a couple of hours. Ta-da!
Biagio
That one string is only applying about 30 lbs. of tension out of about 1000 total and the harp board is further braced down there by the pillar foot. So you should be OK for a while until you can buy a replacement.
Biagio
Agreed, the best way to understand something is to first study it, then try it. For this style of harp specifically, people such as James, Ann Heymann, Paul Dooley, Simon Chadwick and indeed yous truly have studied them extensively, and built them as well. Research first, then experiment, I suggest, would save a lot of time and expense!
WRT to restringing a harp designed for nylon/gut with wire: steel interestingly enough, can substitute one for one with nylon (in smaller diameters, of course). Brass or bronze – no, you would have to lower the range several steps. The only way to determine this is to actually bite the bullet and do the analysis. Some that have been more or less successfully converted: The Musicmaker Limerick, Triplett Zephyr.
Sorry if I offended you but honestly, urethane will not provide any strength to speak of for a harp such as this we are discussing, at a total tension of close to a quarter ton. You must brace the sides or they will bow in and eventually snap. Trust me on this.
I don’t claim to “own” physics, just to understand it. You will have a hard time convincing me – or anyone – that 0.01mm of urethane – a plastic – will add any strength to 1/4″ of sound board. And BTW, contrary to your statement, bracing does NOT transfer vibrations to the board and sides – it inhibits that. Harps are braced solely to keep them from collapsing under the string tension. But don’t trust my word alone – ask any other harp maker.
Biagio
Gudd’ay friends,
Gosh, I cannot help mesel’ commenting here, with abject apologies to any I might offend. To whit: play the harp that is front of you.
If we all committed to only one style of harp where would be?
No offense but I personally consider the pedal harp to be an engineering abortion of extravagant cost when one can make beautiful music on a diatonically tuned wire harp.
Just kidding…On the other hand,one can’t play Debussy on a clarsach😂
Guess we are just stuck with the design; but I must say that open C tuning makes a deal of sense to me for both, if one wishes to play folk and concert music.
But heck, why not have several harps, suited to the music and venue?
Biagio
Hugs,
Good advice, Andy – always a good idea to contact the maker directly with any questions!
I know James well, he is a friend and well respected in wire harp circles. For others reading this thread it might be interesting to know that he has begun to make narrow spaced wire strungs – one of only a few makers in the US who do, nowadays.
Biagio
It appears that your harp experienced a “cascade” – this does not happen often – usually from a sudden change in climate – but it can be annoying (and alarming) when it does. Here is a good explanation of restringing such harps, from David Kortier:
http://www.kortier.com/subpages/toggles.htm
To remove them I use a telescoping magnetic “pickup” tool, which you can buy for about $5-$10 US at most hardware and auto supply stores. Assuming you live in the US you can buy new brass or bronze wires at The Instrument Workshop:
For a lot more information, including wire resources see
http://www.wirestrungharp.com/
You might also consider joining the Yahoo wire harp group:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/WireHarp/info
Please DO NOT try cutting access holes in the back. A closed back on these harps is intentional for reasons of both tone and volume. The old harps which these were modeled after had closed backs that were removable in toto and some reproductions still do; but they also have a tendency to slip, stick, and rattle as the wood changes with humidity and temperature. You might also very possibly end up splitting the wood. Then the only option would be to buy a new harp.
A few modern wire harps have access holes in the back – Triplett and Caswell, for example – but they are otherwise also designed for that. Here’s a general rule: do not physically alter any harp unless you yourself are an experienced harp maker.
When they are desired we use half hard sterling silver wire, but again, you should understand harp making and string theory before experimenting. Silver is heavier than brass (or bronze) and is only useful for bass strings that are too short for the other two to ring – which is not the case with the Folcharp.
Best wishes,
BiagioHa ha, maybe we should start a new thread, on pricing!
It’s relatively easy for a newer harp model: add up the total manufacturing cost (including design time and several prototypes), add a reasonable profit margin. Then compare to similar competitors’. Older and one-of-a-kind…well, gets tricky and buyers can surprise you. Here’s a little anecdote:
Back when I lusted for the Salvi McFall (and the later Egan) I built a 34 string version. My interest has since changed to the wire strung, got tired of building or repairing and decided to get rid of the tools and some of the (at that time) five harps sitting around the tiny apartment.
Soooo…advertised the tool sale and included a picture of one of the wire strungs. Watta ya know? A newbie showed up – not interested in drill presses or band saws but in buying a harp, specifically the 34. “How much do you want for that?” Well I just threw out a figure off the top of my head – sold! It’s a nice instrument and I don’t feel guilty, but honest, the price was a spur of the moment number.
On the other hand, little 23 string doubles (46 total) have sat around for months, very reasonably priced, waiting for buyers to show up.
Huh!
Cheers,
BiagioBrook, it was the rich tone and big sustain that attracted me to the older Ana back when I was in the market. I really like those long bass strings, which you don’t see on many lever harps. It seems to me that lever harpers mostly prefer a smaller, lighter instrument, what do you all think?
Getting back to Jerusha’s question (and getting way off track): pricing an older harp to my mind becomes more like pricing a house than comparing current models. One should evaluate each on it’s own merits, there’s no handy formula as with a newer one. We all agree, I guess, that one should never buy a harp untested if at all possible!
Biagio
Interesting question Jerusha. Rationally speaking as a harp ages it improves – the old saw has it that “a harp sounds best just before it breaks” but with modern methods and glues I’m not sure that applies so much. I guess that would be a judgement call based mostly on the sound board condition, and the mechanics.
Then there is the collector factor – some harps are no longer being made but everyone wants those still out there. I’d almost hock my car to get my hands on a Caswell Gwydion!
Many people want a Clark; I restored one made in 1925 that I bought for $500 and then sold for $2,000; I’ve seen some that old in perfect condition sell for over $4,000 and others useful only for parts.
Definitely situations where one should look at an old harp in person.
Biagio
Hi Jerusha,
Well, to be honest people often sell a harp at less than a consignment entity might value it, so I’ll grant your point LOL. Maybe they saw another harp they just had to have, perhaps they just don’t play it as much any more, etc. etc. Here’s the way many pros price a used harp, for what it’s worth:
About 10% off retail right off the bat
Deduct $50-$100 US for each cosmetic blemish
Deduct another $50-$200 if strings are old and/or harp has not been regulated recently (amount depends on the specific harp)Price at less than 1/2 original price or less if there are structural but repairable defects.
That last one can be “interesting” to some if they are willing. For instance, lever harp with a split neck may be repairable or replaceable for little cost, some sound board cracks may only be cosmetic etc.Hi duckspeak,
Just an addition to your comment (which I know you know but some may not): “tension”is a much misunderstood concept. There’s static tension which refers to the force exerted when a string is at rest, kinetic when it is plucked, and resistance which is entirely different from both. That refers to the elasticity of the string, gut being less elastic than the artificial types (Tynex, Fluorocarbon, etc.).
Just curious Gail,
It does strike me that while the various harps mentioned, especially the Prelude and Troubadour, are all excellent pre-pedal instruments, if you are a complete beginner you might want to think about a less expensive model to start. Interests change as we go along and you can learn good basic technique on, let us say, a Dusty Ravenna, as you can on a Troub; perhaps sell the Ravenna later if you decide you want to grade up.
Just thinkin’…
Biagio
@jerusha- no offense but I beg to differ. If someone “expected” me to sell a good used harp at a steep discount they would be sadly disappointed. A typical discount for a used harp with no cosmetic defects – lever or pedal – would be 10% and that is entirely due to the fact that the warranty would no longer apply.
Biagio
