Mahler 3

[carl-swanson]

Tacye,

I think the trickiest part of editing an orchestra part is in fact trying to figure out what the composer did want to hear. It would be very easy to over do it and turn the harp part into a solo with orchestra accompaniment, or into something different, but no better. I always tried to stick as close to what the composer wrote as I could. Sometimes the changes are so simple but make a world of difference. Years ago I had to play Stravinsky’s Scherzo à la Russe, which has a piano and harp duet in the middle of it. The two instruments are in strict cannon, with the harp following the piano. Both parts are written in the key of B major, and there are no accidentals within the duet. I rewrote the harp part so it was in C flat. That made the harp resonate better, and it meant I could tune note for note to the piano so we would be perfectly in tune with each other. Why Stravinsky couldn’t figure that out baffles me.

[Elizabeth Volpé Bligh]

I just got out my Mahler 3 part, and you’re right about the chords at 72 and 75. They are not possible to play at tempo unless you split them between the two harpists. That section is thickly orchestrated, so, even with the harpists playing brilliantly, the harps are likely to be obliterated.
The harmonics are played where they are written, as was the custom at the time. After rehearsal number 42, I used the knuckle of my left hand to play the lower harmonic, since I could not play that harmonic with the usual left hand technique.I hope this answers your question.
I am thankful that composers generally did not go along with Salzedo’s suggestion to write the harmonics where they sound. It makes the music harder to read, and goodness knows it’s hard enough. No disrespect to Salzedo, who was a great innovator.

[Victoria]

Thank you so much Balfour and Elizabeth, that was really helpful 🙂

[Elizabeth Volpé Bligh]

Strangely, I posted an answer here a few days ago, but it doesn’t show up in the thread.
I checked my part and found that the chords at 72 and 75 in the first movement were only playable by splitting them between the two harpists, and the harmonics were to be played where written. I’m writing this again in case others need these answers.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by Elizabeth Volpé Bligh.

[leisesturm]

Your earlier answer has been visible (at least to me) for several days Elizabeth. I am new to the forum and I find it interesting because when I look at old threads (really old threads) some posts are blank. I don’t know if that is what you mean. I am going to try using a different browser (I use Firefox) to look at this forum. Sometimes that makes a difference.

And as long as I am posting again I want to thank Victoria for ‘understanding me’. Yes. Exactly as you explained. That was my thinking!

[Elizabeth Volpé Bligh]

Oh, I see what happened. There are two pages of responses, and I had only been looking at the first page.

[Saul Davis Zlatkovski]

When audibility is a problem, one then plays the harmonics with the left hand, and doubles them with the right hand one octave higher, to enrich the tone. It preserves the quality of the harmonics as long as they predominate the right hand, and the right hand makes them sound all the more lucid and liquid.

[Saul Davis Zlatkovski]

Stravinsky taking the time to write a harp part perfectly? Hah! How many composers do that? I think the masters didn’t bother because they knew they could rely on professionals to do what was best, and they didn’t have time. Those who take the time may still not get it right. It’s what all orchestral musicians do, adapt, correct and fix.

[Victoria]

Thank you for the suggestion, Saul.

I wonder, is it only harpists that have problems with getting unplayable parts? I have always thought other musicians never has such problems, or not as often anyway, or maybe it is just we are not aware of it?

[carl-swanson]

I don’t think other musicians have as many problems as the harpists have, and I think the reason is that composers usually play piano, and think of the harp parts as being the same as the piano, just with a different sound coming out. I have always felt that any composer who wants to write something for the harp should study the instrument for at least 6 months, just so they can learn to see and hear the instrument the way harpists do.

[Saul Davis Zlatkovski]

I think many of them, particularly brass and percussion do, but they’re not as severe as our problems.

[carl-swanson]

I remember years ago having to play a “contemporary” piece in which the composer had written-for a piece at a very slow tempo- a glissando over 3 (slow) beats, covering 3 notes in the first octave!

[balfour-knight]

At least that was easy to play, Carl! I cannot believe things like that are actually written, ha, ha!

Best wishes,
Balfour

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