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Scales and arpeggios

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Home Forums Teaching the Harp Scales and arpeggios

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  • #82533
    unknown-user
    Participant

    I’ve

    #82534
    carl-swanson
    Participant

    Dale-This is actually quite an explosive question. You’ll see why as the commentary comes in. Here is the situation. It was Salzedo who decided that scales, arpeggios, and etudes were not necessary for learning to play the harp, in spite of the fact that he himself was a virtuoso harpist who had studied with Alphonse Hasselmans at the Paris Conservatory, who made vigorous use of scales, arpeggios, and etudes. So it has been primararily Salzedo’s disciples,(but not exclusively) who have carried this torch.

    Regardless of who is teaching that way now(without using scale and arpeggio exercises, and etudes), the theory behind that position makes no sense. Why would the harp be excluded from a form of technical study that clearly works and which is embraced by every other musical instrument? International harp competitions are a good barometer for who is producing the most technically proficient players, and consistently it is the French and the Russians, who both make extensive use of the above mentioned material, who make it to the final stages.

    A friend of mine, currently president of an important music conservatory, told me that in his former job, one of his duties was to audition music students(on all instruments) for an advanced level summer student orchestra. He told me that for the 20 or so years that he did this, he “always had to lower the bar for the harpists.” He said that it didn’t matter what school of playing they had been trained in, they were all equally deficient.

    There is no excuse for this. Harp students need to be held to the same standards as everyone else, and the harpists who are play much better for it.

    My piano teacher in high school was on the faculty of Manhattan School of Music, and he told me that a requirement for Piano students at that school was that they be able to play scales, 4 notes to the beat, at 132 on the metronome. I made that my goal as a student and got to the point where I could do it. Barely, but I could.

    The point of this is that any student on any instrument has to learn to play at a fast tempo, and scales, arpeggios, and etudes are the best way to start building a technique at that level. If you depend solely on playing fast pieces to learn this, you will not develop a technical basis that can be applied to other fast and hard pieces. It will only apply to the one piece you learned. More importantly though, if you don’t work out the technique for playing fast on scales, arpeggios, and etudes, I find that the result is always somewhat lumpy and uneven, and the player sounds like he/she is struggling.

    #82535
    carl-swanson
    Participant

    I just reread my post and wanted to make one clarification. In the paragraph about playing scales at 132, I meant that I got so I could do it on both piano and harp. Barely, but I could do it.

    #82536

    I agree with Carl. Try playing a Bach transcription on harp without having practiced a lot of scale exercises. Good luck.

    Briggsie

    #82537

    I’m back for a second post, too. I was just thinking, with all the other stuff you have to do on the harp, just like playing the organ — there is a bunch of “stuff” you have to be concerned with — you better have a good technique and just be able to fly on the strings (as on the keys on the organ) when you begin playing advanced literature. I have heard organists who had no piano background, and it is often, if not always, pretty dismal. You need a good technical background as a keyboard player before you can work all “them thar gadgets” and move your feet efficiently. Same with the harp — you better be able to zoom around the strings with ease before you start messing with multiple pedal changes and all the other things you have to be concerned with on the harp.

    Briggsie

    #82538
    unknown-user
    Participant

    Thank you for the response, but my question was narrower in scope than your answer. I’m not asking about the value of technical work or etudes, but specifically, scales and arpeggios. The reason the question about scales arises is that scales are a good deal easier on harp than they are on some instruments. Since, with the exception of melodic minors (where the fast pedal change needed is needed at the top of the scale), all you do is set the pedals, start on the right string and play the right number of octaves, you don’t need to do as much jumping around as you do playing a scale on most other instruments, keyboard, wind or string. That’s why the question arises. I’m not opposed to scales per se, but I can’t specify what they would do for a harp student other than contribute to general finger agility, and there are other ways to get at that.

    I also wouldn’t contest that the Russians and French produce great harpists. But the French are not producing great musicians in general, despite their wonderful system of musical education. At the moment, there are few French soloists on any instrument other than harp who rank in the very top (the Labeque sisters, perhaps, and Natalie Dessay, although vocalists are a bit different). Nor is there any French orchestra that figures in lists of the best (I know those lists are highly subjective, but they give a rough guide and it seems significant that no French orchestra seems to get cited by anyone as one of the world leaders). I not knocking the French system, but if the way they teach is the best, it seems odd they aren’t producing more world-class violinists, pianists or orchestras. There may be reasons other than the system itself that accounts for their production of good harpists (e.g., the esteem in which the instrument is held in France).

    #82539
    barbara-brundage
    Participant

    I would say that the overwhelming majority of the teachers I’ve studied under and know think they are important, regardless of method.

    HOWEVER, there’s one big difference between harp and other instruments in this respect, which is that all scales and chordal arpeggios are fingered the same, regardless of key, so in a sense, they are less important than on other instruments. It’s not that you don’t need the same facility–of course you do.

    But you can practice the C Major scale and you’re learning all the other scales at the same time, which means it doesn’t require as much practice time as where you’re having to learn to center yourself in each key with different fingerings.

    But I never met a serious teacher of any harp method who didn’t see the importance of scales and arpeggios.

    #82540
    carl-swanson
    Participant

    Scales at a very fast tempo are difficult on the harp, but for different reasons than on the piano. One of the many reasons to play scales and arpeggios on the harp is that they help to develop the ability to ‘feel’ ones way around the instrument. After all, unlike the piano, we don’t have an arrangement of black and white keys to help us orient ourselves to the instrument. There is just a plane of strings and we have to be able to feel specific distances to get around the instrument easily without looking constantly at our hands. Scales and arpeggios, in all their variations, are a good way of learning those distances.

    I’m not really qualified to discuss the rest of your post. Trying to form a list of the ‘best’ soloists is subjective at best. Also, many times a soloist can have a great career in one part of the world and be completely unknown elsewhere. There was an American harpsichordist named Scott Ross who had a great career in Europe but was completely unknown here. The Amnerican pianist Daniel Pollack won second prize in the Tchaikovski competition the year Van Cliburn won first. Pollack was enormously popular in Russia for years, but never had a great career elsewhere. Much of the success and fame of soloists and ensembles has a lot to do with their concert management and the people who run those agencies. They can make or break a career. Just read “WHO KILLED CLASSICAL MUSIC?” by Norman Lebrecht to see what I mean. it’s not a pretty picture.

    In the case of orchestras, there are many European orchestras that are wonderful but which don’t tour, or don’t tour often. They are state supported and run organizations who perform a service for their particular city or country and don’t record or tour. That doesn’t make them inferior ensembles.

    #82541

    Speaking for myself, not Salzedo or Swanson, I have found scales to always be pretty important. In fact, I generally always include scales and some sort of arpeggio or chord-based exercise in my warm-ups. Scales are certainly not as big of a deal on the harp because we use the same fingerings in every key, unlike the other instruments, who have to practice every kind of scale. What is different is the string tension, so we should practice in different keys on different days, like c-sharp and c-natural. We should also practice them with different fingerings, like 321321 and 432121 etc. So, actually there are a lot of scale exercises possible. We also need to practice them in canon if we want to play Flight someday. I practice them in four tempi a day, usually doubling the speed so first it is one note to the beat, which between 60 and 80, then two notes, then four notes, then 8 notes, so, yes, I am effectively playing scales at 160. It took quite a while to get there, of course.

    #82542
    mr-s
    Member

    Hi Dale, as i am following the Russian Method let me tell you that Scales and Arpeggios are basics in the russian method, its not a joke , you have to start your day practicing and warming up with it, there are many forms of them to practice, and playing them in a fast speed gives you a high technique believe me. you feel that your hands with finger are flying freely after playing it, but let me tell you something too sometimes we dont have enough time and we need to practice an important piece so we dont do it, but is it positive ? yes 100% its………

    #82543
    unknown-user
    Participant

    As far as I can see, these responses boil down to two grounds for scales: finger dexerity and authority (the French do them, the Russians do them, Salzedo did them, everybody says to do them). The trouble with the latter argument

    #82544
    sherry-lenox
    Participant

    I’m a harp beginner but have played woodwinds professionally in the past.

    I can’t imagine how one could achieve technical facility without concentrated attention to scales and arpeggios. My teacher is eclectic in her training and in her teaching methods, so no particular bias on my part.

    #82545
    barbara-brundage
    Participant

    All music learning involves the assimilation of patterns. Scale and arpeggio patterns appear in all western music: why do you think it would be valueless to learn common patterns?

    I’d be very curious to know why you think a pattern that is even named after the instrument is less likely to be performed on a harp than on another instrument.

    #82546
    mr-s
    Member

    Hi Dale, i dont agree with the idea that harpists do play scales because other musiciens do it, it really very useful for technique, let me tell you my opinion as i practice the scales in a high speed i can after that play classical pieces with scales pattens easily and freely as Mozart concert, french classical music ,as Hasselmans, Naderman, Cardon etc……, and at the end it warms up your hand, but i think many of us dont want to start the day with it, as we dont have the patience and we need to start playing the pieces we work on . it s my opinion, mayb not right.

    regards.

    #82547
    carl-swanson
    Participant

    Just out of curiosity, what instrument do you play?

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