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Thanks Wil. I read Biagio’s post again and now infer (thanks to your edit) that Dave (Thormahlen) might work on a harp that he did not build. I will ignore the (unintended I am sure) slight to my aptitude for figuring out the mounting of a few sharping levers.
I should tell you that I haven’t really heard a Ravenna except through my computers soundcard and speakers. Another poster in another thread characterized the Ravenna as being ‘plinkier’ than a Crescendo and went as far as to say a Crescendo sounds “10 times better” than a Ravenna.
Interesting that. But what really has me scratching my head is the fact that a L&H Ogden is cheaper than just about any of the other instruments (Ravenna excepted) in its 34 string class. It is bigger, heavier, and has the L&H cachet going for it but still doesn’t break the bank for all that. What is going on?
The Harp world is interesting to be sure. The L&H instruments look like a LOT of harp for the money and usually that means a second rate manufacturer. I don’t get the impression that people consider L&H ‘second rate’. But I don’t really want a pedal tension instrument to start out with. The Ogden is also 38lbs. I suppose it has to be built very strong to withstand the pedal tension tuning. It might be nice to have as an instrument that stays at home.
I’m sure I’ll change my mind by tomorrow or the day after that. Watch this space. 🙂
Am I to understand from your latest post, Biagio (besides the fact that you are most generous with your time and patience) that the Thormahlen Harps that you and others were urging me to check out in my earlier thread are the MusicMaker Harps (and kits) that I have already done a bit of research on?
So here is what I think is a reasonable and rational way to proceed with this: Procure a Ravenna 34. Preferably a rent to own kind of trial purchase. Assuming the trial goes well (and how could it not with all the positive vibrations from the harp and harping community) settle in to learning the instrument with the 34 string.
In six months or so obtain the kit for the Cheyenne (36) Harp and start on its build out. No time pressure on a completion date as I will have a harp to play in the meantime. No point getting another 34 string. The ‘plinkiness’ of the Ravenna becomes less of a drawback and maybe even becomes a positive as it becomes a different voice, one which just might suit the Celtic repertoire more. If you get from that that I don’t have any plans to sell the Ravenna after the Cheyenne is completed you would be correct.
The MusicMakers are big harps. Their cases are very expensive and don’t (to my eyes) look as nice as the Dusty cases. At least the Ravenna will fit in its Dusty case and can be worn as a backpack. The Cheyenne will not fit in the CD36 case. It’s just too big a harp. I can’t tell from their pictures if the MusicMakers cases have pockets for music and accessories. I hope so because that’s a whole lot of case there.
Hmmm. Again, consider the source (me), but … Salzedo is pretty contemporary and should not, as far as I know, be one to go that much against convention as to write harmonics where they sound. Is it really impossible to play a harmonic of a 1st octave note? That is the question I would want an answer to before I accept that Salzedo wrote harmonics where they sound. Not doubting you, just suggesting a possibility to explore.
I am fairly certain that other harpists do their darndest to get every note of the arpeggiated chords and don’t stop working on the passage until they do. When I play a piano accompaniment or instrument part that is what I do. sometimes a page turn makes that impossible but that is the only thing that does. Page turns should not be an issue in an orchestral harp part. But, between us, if it were a … … lesser ensemble than say, the London Symphony Orchestra, and I was having trouble getting in all the notes of a four octave arpeggio I would focus on the top two octaves at least. Those are the notes that are going to be heard (missed) and I would want them prominent. I might even use the time I’ve saved not worrying about the lower octave notes to fill in the three note per octave standing notation. Is there any way for you to put the passage in question as a link?
I used to fix bicycles for a living. I still work on my own bikes. I like mechanical things. I have an intuitive feel for torques and mechanical advantages. With nothing more than that to go on i.e. I have never actually seen a sharping lever up close let alone actually manipulated one … with that said. Loveland levers look impossibly short to me. There doesn’t seem to be enough leverage there to make for a smooth low resistance throw.
Rees and Camac levers look about the same length. Rees levers seem mainly available on their own instruments. Camacs are available more widely. I wasn’t aware Camacs were fussy as to string diameter. Lovelands are that way too I believe. Truitts appear to be in-between Loveland’s and Rees/Camacs in lever length. And, as noted, they look rather thin (and uncomfortable). Wrapping a 24K gold plated sharping lever (24K plated anything) in shrink wrap is surely against some sort of moral injunction. I wouldn’t do it.
Also count me in as for full levers from go. Great thread idea by the way.
@wil-weten, you may be right that I am not subscribed to this thread. Thing is, I can’t remember having to do anything special when I created the other one. ‘Can’t remember’ being the operative phrase 🙂
I’ve had a look at the Camac line of lever harps, and also the L&H harps. So by ‘bulky bottom’ … I’m looking at the proportion between how wide across the harp is, and how deep (front to back) it is. I might see it different in real life, but in photos the Ravenna appears to be much deeper relative to its width than other lever harps. Obviously the great weight of the sheer number of harps that follow … ‘convention’ means I’ve either got to get with the program or … or else get a Ravenna and call it good.
@Biagio, it isn’t wil-weten than likes to complicate things 🙂 I’m pretty sure I could finish a Voyageur kit! Arrgh. Now you have me poring over the Musicmakers website and working the angles and wondering if, since I’m saving all that cash, whether or not to upgrade to the Cheyenne (would that fit in the CD36 case?) since retail for that kit is exactly $2K which is less than the base Ravenna with full levers! French Horn wasn’t this hard, I just wandered into a pawn shop and $600 later I had a name brand horn in excellent condition (in hindsight) that I play to this day (15 years later).Hi Victoria,
I have no idea why your post arrived in my e-mail last night but … well I don’t play harp (yet) but I think I know the answers to your questions.
1. Harmonics are not written where they sound. The note written is the note played and is not itself a harmonic. The correctly executed harmonic will sound one octave higher than the written (played) note.
2.Not having a score myself I have no reference for ‘huge’ in this context but I imagine all the notes written are expected by the composer. If there are more notes written than the harpist has fingers, then there must be some expectation that the chord is to be arpeggiated (rolled)?Just watched a Josh Layne video where he did a one sixth speed slow motion of a rapid scale pattern … … you know, I almost had this thread deleted. When it didn’t get any responses right away I had a crisis of confidence and thought maybe I had crossed a line. For some reason none of the responses to this thread came through my e-mail although responses to my other thread do.
I should have known that although not explicit in the remarks, my question was being answered anyway, in the best way possible: by examples. Until I actually get my hands on a harp there isn’t much more I can say. Except, thank you.
Hmmm. I just gave the Boulevard a listen and, just for good measure, the Ravenna and Crescendo, again. I don’t really care as much as many, about the difference in sound between a Steinway, Kawai or Borsendorfer piano. I am finding, however, that I definitely notice the difference between the Ravenna and the Boulevard, and I much prefer the sound of the Ravenna for the Celtic repertoire. I also noticed the difficulty the harpist had in cleanly executing the moderate embellishments on the Boulevard. Hard to say whether it was just an inexperienced harpist or whether the higher tension made for the difficulty.
The Crescendo was quite a bit louder than the Ravenna but otherwise they appear to have an identical timbre. Either one sounds just right for doing Celtic type solos and accompaniments. Wil-weten, you are right, for Bach I would want a different sound. I am ok with needing two harps! But as a starter harp the Celtic types seem more approachable. It would be tempting to just do it all on a pedal tension lever harp but the Boulevard would not be the one in that case. The L&H Prelude more fits that bill IMO.
Dusty Strings is in Seattle and probably only 3 hours north of me so I shall probably have to take a trip.
@Biagio, I will look into those other forums. TBH though there is plenty here in archived discussions. Many of my Google searches link right back here, albeit to threads that started (and ended) more than 10 years ago. An interesting thing about those is that some posts are obviously truncated as follow-up posts refer to information that no longer appears in the earlier entries. Still I remain impressed with the ability of the harping community to discourse in a very genial manner until the subject of Grandjany v Salzedo comes up. The gloves come off then.
I go back and forth between the Ravenna and the Crescendo and I am ashamed to admit it comes down to appearance. The Rees people were my first contact with the harp world and I really wanted to like their instruments more because they are just so gosh darned nice. Then Sylvia played a Rees and Dusty Strings side by side and there was no contest.
I could not hear a difference between any of the 34 string Dusties over the Skype connection. A Ravenna with Camac levers, pickup, and case costs about what the base Crescendo costs! I’m more than tempted.
Obviously aesthetics matter in harp design and manufacture. I’ve never seen so much sheer … creativity applied to the appearance of any musical instrument. To my eyes the instruments that streamline the interface between the column and the top arch are the most pleasing. Crescendo wins there. The deep soundboxes of pedal harps in general is a design feature that has not crossed over to lever harps except the Ravenna. I don’t include the L&H Prelude in the category of lever harps as the Dusties.
Sigh, a Crescendo with Camac levers, pickup and case probably cannot be justified as a first instrument. But, like I said, I would pull that trigger if it had that deep soundbox (at the base) the Ravenna has. I can’t be the only one that feels this way. You may be better placed than most to convey my opinions to the luthiers that actually make the instruments that we consider for purchase. Cheers.
@balfour-knight, at the possible risk (noooo!) of offending those who have offered much insight into the mysteries of beginning harp I have to express some frustration that there does not seem to be anyway to contact another forum member directly through the Harp Column website. At least I am not able to discern how. Is it frowned upon the posting of email addresses in open forum? I have no plans to acquire a concert grand size harp of any kind but the petite size L&H Chicago instrument looks interesting. I am pretty much set on a Dusty Strings Ravenna 34 or Crescendo 34 to start but I would definitely be interested in learning more about how you keep both lever and pedal harp practice and also keep up with your piano and organ … you do keep up with … never mind. See this is why some things should be taken off the air. Just kidding.
Maybe its time to start a new thread but I’m doing so well with this one. I want to ask another question and share two videos I watched this morning. First, however, I want to talk about a Skype chat I had with Sylvia Wood’s from her home in Kauai, HI. She demonstrated several harps and I showed her my hand and how it works and she mentioned teachers in my area. She even did some matchmaking as she knew of a new beginner with my background (pipe organ) and she thought we might have things to share. An absolutely delightful and informative experience. I should have asked her the questions I have today but I didn’t have them yesterday 🙂
So earlier today I saw this video on beginning Pedal Harp hand position and technique. You guys probably don’t need to watch the whole thing but I did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpGNSvTENoI. I should mention that this hand position is exactly the one that my new left hand adopts naturally. Without my prompting Google autoplay next cued up this video of a beginning Celtic Harp hand position and technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzzn17w2ZRgCan you guess my question? Sylvia didn’t think my hand would be any handicap for the foreseeable future. Her assumption is that I would be playing a Celtic style instrument. It certainly is the instrument I will start with. I wondered though if anyone routinely went back and forth between a pedal harp and a folk harp. If yes, do they change their hand position and plucking technique to suit the instrument? In other words, assuming that there is such a thing as a different Celtic and Pedal hand position. How important is it to strictly reserve a Celtic type hand position for that kind of harp?
This is a repost of an entry I made earlier today. In the process of editing it the system refused to accept my changes and then stopped accepting anymore attempts saying the message already existed, though I could see no sign of it. Anyway, without further ado:
I visited the link to Laurie Riley’s site a little while ago and the current blog entry (6/9/19) speaks directly to “how long?”. Very funny. @wil-weten said,”as you are used to performing on the organ and the horn, you may as well wish to perform on the harp.” Absolutely! Everything I do ends up having a performance aspect. I was born to perform 🙂
So, yes, I have been primarily looking at instruments regarded as having “good projection” and a size that is generally acknowledged as good for ‘performance’ in public spaces. I have to say that in the short time I have been researching this the Lyon and Healy ‘Prelude’ comes up again and again and again. Has anyone compared it to a Salvi ‘Ana’? Are they the same Harp?
Someone linked a harpshop in Portland and it appears to be around 12 miles north of my home. Doable, although not as easy as might first appear because I don’t own a car. They list a used L&H ‘Plde’ for sale, as well as several ‘Troubadors’. Also a number of Dusty Strings FH36’s. Thanks for that link, I have yet to actually contact the shop but they will likely be a first stop.
With respect to double strung harps in particular and other kinds of … alternative styles (cross, triple …) in general. My only concern is: how much repertoire is there for these instruments? When I browse music sources for harp all I see is lever harp and pedal harp. Assumedly the lever harp arrangements will avoid the very ‘chromaticism’ that the alternative models can handle, but I am not certain that a double strung harp is up to taking on a standard pedal harp arrangement. I don’t really want to play something that is neither fish nor fowl.
I have a strong interest in Celtic style harping. It is constantly reinforced that the “blazing ornamentation” common in this style is best done on lighter tension and nylon (or steel) strings. Where can I find examples of this ornamentation? Written out, I mean. There seems to be a lot of pre-recorded harp instruction online. Mostly very elemental beginner stuff. Does it have to be in the context of live (or Skype) lessons with a teacher to learn more advanced music? And with all those pedal style lever harps out there … doya’s all ever get up to some good ole jigs and reels on your classical style instruments?
Oh, oh, one more question if I might – I know that you are supposed to lean a harp back to your shoulder and balance it on its back feet. You can see that at rest the instrument is tilted forward and the strings become more or less vertical in playing position. My question: do you also tilt pedal harps? They are perfectly vertical when sitting flat on their bases and what would happen to the pedals if you tilted them back? And what about the pedal style lever harps? They don’t have pedals but they are built straight up and down and if tilted backwards … well, I don’t know. I haven’t seen the matter discussed.
Interesting. No, I did not intentionally delete my message. I have tried several times to re-post it but the system won’t let me. I have it saved in Word though. Maybe now that you have broken the spell I can try again? If not, I may take you up on your offer. I grow more and more impressed each day with the harpist community.
Thanks so much everyone. I knew I had come to the right place. I came across the Facklers website over the weekend! It’s going to be hard resisting the urge to just play their harp parts on a piano. This brings up the question: assuming that my left hand reach is adequate (I don’t notice any weakness) how quickly would it take to get to the level of those Fackler accompaniments? I generally learn instruments quickly and harp seems on its face to have some relationship to a piano layout. I know, I know, I have to go try out a harp. I’ll see myself out.
P.S. organ composers are forever inverting things and putting accompaniment figures in the right hand while the left hand takes the melody. Since the pedals have the ultimate bass the overall effect is preserved. Even so I have played lots of piano arrangements where the left hand takes the melody. It wouldn’t be as mind bending as might be supposed to play in the manner charles-nix suggested. Would that really help though? Are the right hand uses of the ring finger less than for the left hand? Seems like it would be more because it is the dominant hand for so many.
