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I think I’ve ended up being confusing again! So:
1. This is going to be an unlevered harp, without space for levers on the frame, and in fact without bridge pins. This also means that the total height of the harp is closer to the string lengths than it would be if it had bridge pins, Wil, so don’t read as much into the 65cm height. Which will change a cm or so if I make the soundbox square at both ends, which the current sketch doesn’t but I may well revert to.
It won’t be tuned in sharp or flat keys, it’ll be in C, and with all the faff of retuning a double stung, it will most likely stay in C. (I do have a 12 string lyre with guitar tuners, if I want something quick and easy to retune.) Keeping to a purely diatonic range will be part of the challenge! I’m not thinking about accidentals as much as I am thinking about modes here, and looking at medieval music in particular. G still gives me the mixolydian, and the dominant chord for the dorian.
The reason I fancied the F was because that gives you the subdominant chord for C major, and also generally the lower the better with ranges. But after messing around with charts, I’m realising that it’s going to sound a lot better with a G, and it sounds like that’ll be perfectly OK for repertoire as well. Also a lot of this is about avoiding tinkliness, and I’m realising that a marginally higher range with a better sound will probably be less tinkly, plus the joy of a double strung is that it doesn’t force your right hand too high up like a small single strung does.
I’m more likely to adapt other music than to play from lap harp books, at least judging from the books I’ve seen, which seemed to be heavy on the Christmas carols and such, and generally a bit on the scarce side in the UK. But if they tend to go down to a G, that’s a good sign. I’ve been chatting to Carolyn Deal, who has oodles of free double strung tutorial videos up on YouTube, and she is very keen on the double strung Brittany and Eve, which of course both go down to a G. I may get some Skype lessons with her as well.
2. I’m probably abandoning the idea of having each side strung differently. Too much faff, harder to do on a significantly lower tension harp let alone sounding good, I have no idea how well I’d get on with it visually (Carolyn says she basically plays the right hand by feel, but a few people here have said that with a double with parallel strings rather than the Stoney End design, they can see the right side surprisingly well). But I might keep a few alternative string designs in reserve and make sure I have eyelets and the holes in the lowest tuning pins big enough for wound strings, just in case I end up restringing it down the line.
What I’m trying to work out at the moment, and without my string charts here to stare at, is how the Waring supposedly sounds pretty decent despite its short lengths and low tension. It’s still the one I am looking at the most, because of the size and weight, which would be low even if it had a wooden soundbox. I’m guessing that I will be OK adapting to a fairly low-tensioned harp as long as the feel is fairly consistent through the range.
How did it work out in the end? I’m guessing it’s the shorter harp from that maker? I’m designing a small double (I got converted in the end) with help from folk here, and that one has similar string lengths to what I’m planning. I’m also planning to use KF, so I’ve been reading this with interest.
Thank you! I am at my partner’s for the weekend, with no laptop, so I can’t look at the spreadsheets until Monday. I had just figured out how to use them for KF and wound nylon strings, too. So I’m reading up instead, and will attack the stringing charts on Monday, now that I have a good conversion chart for nylon to KF (the Fisher one).
One thing I’ve realised is that I’ll need to have G as my lowest note, not F, unless I went to increase all the string lengths and make it all a bit taller. I’ll play with sketches next week as well. Does anyone have strong feelings on G vs F for the bottom note on an unlevered double strung harp? G is very common, which is hopeful.
Yep, I saw that spam post and couldn’t find anywhere to report it to. I also saw Biagio listed as having replied to this topic the most recently, but no sign of his posts when I came to look at it.
Meanwhile I went and reread Evolene’s thread in the triple/double section, and have copied out Biagio’s comments there about string ribs into my notes. I should possibly mock up a soundbox in cardboard again and try to figure out the widest I could handle.
Making the top wider: would I be better off making it 15cm or so all the way down, like Harpsicles? I was originally going to make it 11cm at the top and 21cm at the bottom.
Tensile strength: according to the magic spreadsheet, it dips below 20% for the bottom two strings, going down to 17.6% and 14.7%. It would stay above 20% if I shifted the stringing up a note. (It would have six notes below 20% if I were to drop it a note, as we were talking about when thinking about an offset stringing scheme.) I’ll do that if I have to, but that bottom F would be nice. Is that the sort of thing that benefits from wound strings? I still don’t have a feel for how it all works with wound strings (any good websites on the subject), apart from hearing that they’re great and knowing that they are not terribly cheap due to import costs.
I am still not sure what the measurements of a medium eyelet are, but I will look into that.
Evolene, I’m thrilled to hear about the harp you’re renting! How are you getting along with it? I hear bubinga Dusty harps are amazing.
Biagio and Wil, thank you for the detailed discussion of one vs. two internal string ribs, which I have copied into my notes. Two string ribs it is, then.
Wil – Cool!
Here is the spreadsheet that goes with the graph I put in a few posts ago. You can see how, between the longer length and thicker gauge, Biagio’s stringing plan comes out around twice the overall tension of mine. There are two totals at the bottom of the tension columns: firstly comparing the total tension for the same nineteen strings on all of them, G up to D, and then the overall tension for all the strings listed (which isn’t the full range on the Limerick, that goes down to tenor C).
The sketch I linked to a few posts further up probably isn’t all that clear, so here are the sizes involved.
It’s on A1 squared paper, 2cm per square. The photo is a touch distorted, it was hard to get the lighting right, but you can look at the grid to see that.
The harp is 65cm (25 1/2″) tall and the soundboard is 62cm (24 1/2″) long. I forgot to measure the depth of the harp while I was in there, but I think it’s about 40cm (15 3/4″). The soundboard is 3mm (1/8″) thick and the soundbox is 5.8cm deep (2 1/4″), using 6mm (1/4″) thick sides and back.
The neck and pillar are 4cm thick, the pillar is about 4cm wide, and the neck varies from 4.5cm to 6cm wide.
The thinking was that this is strung not much more heavily than the Waring, so I’ve sketched it as built slightly more heavily, but still very light. The Waring is made from two single-strung harp frames put together, so it’s all 3.8cm x 3.8cm for the neck and pillar, and then the soundboard is combined with a string rib so that’s different anyway (and by my estimate, about 9cm x 1.2cm, if he didn’t use his usual 1.9cm x 3.8cm). The string lengths are about the same in the middle but generally a little longer for my plan, in order to get a harmonic curve in there.
Wil – Any idea what size eyelet I should grab? Mae has also pointed out I need to make sure I drill the holes bit enough for wound strings, she had to faff around with that when doing the adapted version of her Brittany. Is there a problem with making them all a bit bigger, or do you lose sound or something if the eyelets are a bit on the big side? I think they’re all the same size on my floor harp (I’m renting a Starfish Student at the moment), so there’s plenty of space around the string in the eyelet for the top half of the strings.
Also there will be reaming out some of the zither pins in case of later wound strings, I’m not sure how many of those to do.
Yep, there are some nice zither pins I can get. I know some people are quite keen on them, point out that they work absolutely fine in the construction of pianos, and take less wood out of the neck so that’s good for strength.
Hmm, I’ve put strings on a wire harp with no bridge pins and not had any trouble at the tuning pin end, but brass strings are different to deal with anyway. I know one luthier who doesn’t use them for small nylon harps because he reckons the sound is better without anything to interfere with the string, small harps being harder to get a good sound out of, and he’s really anti-chromaticism so he wouldn’t want people putting levers on his harps later anyway.
(Is your name a joke about Wil Wheaton? Star Trek joke?)
Biagio – that’s the draft in the picture I attached a few messages up. I’ve been sketching the soundbox as well, that’s around on my sewing desk somewhere. Am I better off with two string ribs, then, rather than one used for both courses and placing the courses close together at the soundboard end? I’ve been getting the measurements for the Stoney End double string ribs for comparison.
Oh, I meant the calculations were for nylon throughout, using that magic spreadsheet. I can put in a screenshot tomorrow, that might make more sense. Brain’s a bit fried tonight. Thanks for writing everything in metric, by the way, I appreciate it. The thickness of the timber is what I was planning, so I’m glad that matches. Any idea how narrow I can get away with making it, since I don’t need to leave space for bridge pins or levers? I currently have the pillar about 4cm wide and the neck 4.5cm widening to 6cm at the other end.
Anyway, time for sleep, hopefully. Sympathies to you on the back pain, not fun, is it.
Avoiding 0.022″ – ah, that’s why I’m not seeing that string anywhere in the UK! Duly changed to 0.025″. That said, I’ve rented a Camac Hermine for quite a while, and the top strings on that seem to be the KF equivalent to 0.022″, so I possibly could cope. I remember being worried that the strings would be bitey, and I think they were fine. Either way, it’s easy enough to switch if I change my mind, at least if I’m using KF. I’ll probably be using the top strings on this more than I use the top few strings on a 34 string harp.
Changing to Biagio’s stringing – believe it or not, this almost doubles the tension on the soundboard, as well as adding 3″ in length, even skipping bridge pins and levers! I really do need to keep it as lightweight and small as possible. I know most people are fine with the lap harps that are generally around, but I’m 4’11” and have severe ME/CFS that hugely affects my ability to lift things. A County Kerry was way too big and heavy for me, and they’re considered fairly small harps. An Ardival Kilcoy is just about OK at 4lb/2kg, and I could manage something a bit taller, which is a relief considering how short Kilcoys are. I manage to get pain flares from playing my lyre some of the time, and that’s only 1.5kg/3lb, although it’s not as comfortable to hold as a harp. So as well as needing to be taller, I’m guessing Biagio’s stringing requires a heavier frame to support it, where my design is only a bit wider than a Waring. That’s also why it only has 20 strings, to keep the size down, along with wanting to keep the extra tuning down as much as I can. I massively appreciate the help and have been studying that stringing chart, along with several other charts, very carefully.
Narrowing the string spacing – I did consider this, but I don’t want additional strings, I think I can handle the size as it is, and if I narrow the spacing I lose soundbox size as well as having to get used to a new spacing, so it didn’t seem worth it.
Speaking of pain, I’m in a lot tonight, the level where it’s getting hard to think straight, so apologies if any of this is muddled or snappish.
Does this work? The chart on the left shows the string lengths at the top with the solid lines and the gauges below in the dotted lines, and the chart on the right compares string tension. I’ve also got individual charts for tension, tensile strength ratio and T/L ratio if need be.
I think it’s still cheaper to get KF, yep. Especially as I’d rather skip dyeing if I can. It depends on what lengths Morley sells. Last time I tried nylon it went out of tune much faster than KF and I wasn’t thrilled with the tone. Do you reckon it’d be better?
I’ve written down the different wound strings Morley has in case I need them, yep. Although I agree with Biagio that I may as well string it the same on both sides since it’s my first harp-building experiment. As far as I know, I should be able to do the whole thing in KF if I go down to F, which I’m quite happy with. It gives me the subdominant chord for C major in the bass, and the D at the top is useful for D dorian.
Here’s the planned stringing scheme in nylon, and it’d be the equivalent in KF. I can get the KF supplied locally in any colour and any gauge, so he’d probably tidy up my stringing chart a wee bit, but this gives us an idea. I can put in the charts comparing it to other harps if you like. It’s strung closest to the Waring, just slightly heavier, but still lighter than the Stoney End Eve and the Musicmakers Limerick. The plan is that this will allow me to keep the frame really light, and I don’t mind having something easier on my fingers either.
D – 5.90″ – 0.022″
C – 6.55″ – 0.022″
B – 7.15″ – 0.022″
A – 7.75″ – 0.022″
G – 8.40″ – 0.025″
F – 9.00″ – 0.025″
E – 9.80″ – 0.028″
D – 10.55″ – 0.028″
C – 11.40″ – 0.028″
B – 12.20″ – 0.032″
A – 13.10″ – 0.032″
G – 14.10″ – 0.032″
F – 15.10″ – 0.036″
E – 16.10″ – 0.036″
D – 17.15″ – 0.036″
C – 18.25″ – 0.040″
B – 19.50″ – 0.045″
A – 20.70″ – 0.045″
G – 21.90″ – 0.050″
F – 23.20″ – 0.055″Thanks to both of you for looking over all of this, I really appreciate it!
The nylon strings genuinely are more expensive for me, by the way. Probably because they’re imported from the US but the KF is imported from France. Some of the gauges of the nylon aren’t even available here and would have to come over from the US, especially the top ones.
Elm wood is a possibility and I hear it’s rather nice, but a few people have said it’s too unstable, do you agree? Ash is on offer as well, possibly yew. He doesn’t have any cherry in at the moment but might at some other point. If spalted beech is available, and that’s a stunning-looking wood, should I go for it? European beech not American beech, apparently it’s better for harp-making than the American one (Teifi uses plain beech, Callan in Ireland has made some nice flamed beech harps). The naming of plants gets confusing, it really does. All the local timber merchants just sell oak and meranti. I knew oak wasn’t recommended but meranti is sometimes used for budget guitars or ukuleles, so I looked into it. It turns out to vary wildly, probably not be good enough for harps, and one local supplier was convinced they were actually selling mahogany (they really weren’t, especially not at £4.20/m). Though at the stage where I was looking at using meranti and the cardboard soundbox, the plan was to get a big plank of 1/2″ thick, use that on its own for the soundboard, and laminate it to three layers for the neck and pillar, with maple in the middle for the neck (there’s some shelving around). Still not sure whether it is worth laminating anything if I get a better wood.
Cheers, good to know. It works out a fair bit cheaper as well. Is it worth getting bigger eyelets and reaming out the bottom few zither pins on the left side, in case it works out well and I decide to restring it later?
The Waldorf is great, but it’s built on a much bigger scale than I’m looking for, from string lengths to tension to general weight of the beast. I’m making notes from it, though.
With regards to string ribs for doubles, I’ve seen two options for how the two courses of strings are spaced relative to each other at the soundboard. Stoney End has them close together, 1/2″ apart, and using a single string rib. Dusty Strings has them more widely spaced so that the strings remain parallel, and uses two string ribs with a gap in between. I’ve seen Biagio talking somewhere about how you lose more of the soundboard on either side of the string rib(s) with a double and thus have less space to vibrate, so I thought the Stoney End approach sounded better as well as easier to construct. It sounds like neither approach allows you to magically see both rows of strings distinctly anyway, so no need to worry about that.
